Future of Septa Regional Rail Fleet

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:22 pm Does anyone know what routes will these multi-levels will be used on?

Basically, the routes/trips the Bombardier sets would have been running on (pre-COVID), with those sets cascading to other express trips throughout the system, no doubt. But now, all bets are off. I'd figure them on runs similar to where the Bombers are now. And then we'll see how things go from there with how they utilize the Bomber sets.

PHL: The 2045 plan was put together by a group of transit advocates - not SEPTA's or the City of Philadelphia's
own planners - think amateurs and NOT professional planners - with their own agendas and ideas about what
THEY think that SEPTA's rail system should be like in the year 2045...in effect "Transitizing" Regional Rail...

Read through the topic "Philly Transit Plan" concerning the 2045 plan for more insight about the subject...

Until SEPTA RRD recovers from "The Problem" and ridership returns to a level enough to warrant the use of
the CRRC multilevel cars on the four RRD routes that they are slated for they are NOT a necessity right now...
There is enough equipment to handle current levels of ridership on SEPTA Regional Rail...MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:18 am Until SEPTA RRD recovers from "The Problem" and ridership returns to a level enough to warrant the use of
the CRRC multilevel cars on the four RRD routes that they are slated for they are NOT a necessity right now...
There is enough equipment to handle current levels of ridership on SEPTA Regional Rail...MACTRAXX

I looked at the current schedules and there are approximately 9 AM slots and 8 PM slots where push pull sets might make sense (express run originating or terminating in Philadelphia at a yard or Suburban):

Paoli-Thorndale (AM 9590, 9510, and 9592, PM 9591, 1593 and 9595)
West Trenton (AM 6307 and 6355, PM 6334 and 6336)
Trenton (including runs to and from Trenton) (AM 1701/9744, PM 9759/1756)
Wilmington/Newark (including runs to and from Newark) (AM 9213/9204 and 9215/9218, PM 9241/9250)
Media/Elwyn (AM 9368, PM 9347)

If SEPTA really wanted to use the equipment, there are the runs in the schedule to do it. 9 sets would take some wear and tear off the rest of the fleet and not require the entire fleet to be used. If SEPTA wants new cars, it is going to have to use its existing fleet as having new cars sitting around will not go over well.

Currently, they can only field 6 sets of push-pull equipment (6 cars each) for a total of 36 cars. A 7th set would be held as a spare, leaving 3 more cars as spares. And on the current schedule, there are 6 push-pull sets out in the weekday peak rotation.

They have not been out over the last week and a half or so, as the Sprinters are all getting software updates loaded into their systems. Once that's done, they'll be back out on the line again. But the current assignments have sets on Paoli-Thorndale, Trenton, West Trenton, Wilmington-Newark, and a morning trip on Media-Elwyn.

Here's an idea I haven't really seen floating around:
Why not a refurbishment? Carbodies are often the most expensive part of fleet acquisition, and despite their age the S4s aren't having any structural problems. I know of quite a few places that could tackle such a contract (even one that is conveniently located within SEPTA's purview).

What about bigger windows and regenerative braking? /s
I'm sure Alstom can do it like the Patco cars and hopefully add regenerative braking though I doubt it. Too heavy for the S4 carbodies or septa is just going to cheap out and keep the s4s going forever without replacement.

MCG: A rebuilding of the Silverliner Four cars along the lines of what PATCO accomplished with their car fleet
(the Budd cars date from 1968-69 and the Canadian Vickers cars date from 1980) is definitely an interesting idea...
This is something that structural engineers could evaluate for SEPTA - and maybe save SEPTA millions of dollars...

The cars can be re-equipped with new and extensively rebuilt components...They could get the center doors
that they were originally designed for along with new end vestibule door types to replace the manually operated
trap plates. The S4 cars had their interiors replaced about 20 years ago-when they got the red into blue outside
color scheme-Car 302 was the first S4 car overhauled in this manner (1998 as I remember) as a prototype then...

PHL: Any change to the windows on the S4 cars may compromise the strength of the carbody.
Best to leave well enough alone...The S4 cars have dynamic brakes (on the roof of the cars) and just perhaps
regenerative braking for better AC power consumption may be worthwhile...

MACTRAXX

Silverliner II wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:38 am Currently, they can only field 6 sets of push-pull equipment (6 cars each) for a total of 36 cars. A 7th set would be held as a spare, leaving 3 more cars as spares. And on the current schedule, there are 6 push-pull sets out in the weekday peak rotation.

They have not been out over the last week and a half or so, as the Sprinters are all getting software updates loaded into their systems. Once that's done, they'll be back out on the line again. But the current assignments have sets on Paoli-Thorndale, Trenton, West Trenton, Wilmington-Newark, and a morning trip on Media-Elwyn.

The 9 figure is what I could see once the CRRC cars are in service. Between the Bombers and CRRC coaches and 15 locomotives, 9 is quite a light number of runs with 6 in reserve.

mcgrath618 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:47 pm Here's an idea I haven't really seen floating around:
Why not a refurbishment? Carbodies are often the most expensive part of fleet acquisition, and despite their age the S4s aren't having any structural problems. I know of quite a few places that could tackle such a contract (even one that is conveniently located within SEPTA's purview).

Of course, the interiors have been rehabbed (going back 20 years now), but the mechanical side has never gone through a total rebuild.
The only stumbling block I see with a total rebuild though, is running afoul of FRA crash strength regulations for end/corner posts, which the IV's do not meet. It is for those reasons that recently rebuilt cab cars done by the MBTA and the Comet II cabs of NJ Transit back in the early 2000's were rebuilt into trailer coaches. That, more than anything, could put the kibosh on any rebuild plans, even if funding was had to do that.

rcthompson04 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:35 pm The 9 figure is what I could see once the CRRC cars are in service. Between the Bombers and CRRC coaches and 15 locomotives, 9 is quite a light number of runs with 6 in reserve.

Ahhh, I gotcha, and the 9 based on current schedules. There would be enough equipment on hand to actually field 14 sets overall including spares (seven sets of 6 cars each, with each car type having 3 cars left over and 1 motor left over).

Of course, the interiors have been rehabbed (going back 20 years now), but the mechanical side has never gone through a total rebuild.
The only stumbling block I see with a total rebuild though, is running afoul of FRA crash strength regulations for end/corner posts, which the IV's do not meet. It is for those reasons that recently rebuilt cab cars done by the MBTA and the Comet II cabs of NJ Transit back in the early 2000's were rebuilt into trailer coaches. That, more than anything, could put the kibosh on any rebuild plans, even if funding was had to do that.
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Would the recently changed FRA Crashworthiness tiers help that at all?
Furthermore, would the Delaware Car Company be capable of handling such a refurbishment? They were the contractor I alluded to earlier, and while I am sure they'd do a fantastic job at refurbishing both the interior and exteriors of the SLIVs, after a bit of research I am not sure they have the capability of doing any overhaul to the propulsion systems. Maybe a joint effort could come about, not unlike the AEM-7, where a separate company like Wabtec or Alstom completely rebuilds the propulsion systems, and then the carbodies are shipped down to Wilmington to have their interiors redone...
If SEPTA were to go with a new car, I would prefer something like the LIRR M9. Those are fantastic looking (and from what I hear, fantastic performing) cars that would serve Philadelphia commuting well.

Isn't the issue with the M9s that their undercarriages are laid out in such a way that trap doors would require a pretty substantial redesign? They look like a great car if an overhead wire with trap door model could be made easily.

We'll have to wait and see what Metro-North does. I was under the belief that they are getting their own M9s that meet both of those specs, but now I am unsure.

Metro-North has all high-level platforms except for a station or four in the diesel zone (two of which see only weekend service by a handful of trains to serve the Appalachian Trail), so traps are not an issue for them as far as EMU's are concerned. But it was because of the trucks that the doors on the Silverliner V's are more towards the center of the carbody as opposed to the M-series EMU's on Metro-North and LIRR.

I've been thinking of this for a while now but what if siemens comes up with a Silverliner 6 Replacement like what if they use the venture coaches and convert them into EMU with an ALC-42 face on it

Silverliner5 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:53 pm I've been thinking of this for a while now but what if siemens comes up with a Silverliner 6 Replacement like what if they use the venture coaches and convert them into EMU with an ALC-42 face on it

I presume they would look like the rear coaches on the Venture sets being built for Amtrak. Siemens has many EMU / DMU designs in Europe so you would think they could pull it off.