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  • Amtrak Gateway Tunnels - Freight Usage

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

 #1588352  by west point
 
1. It apparently would be too steep for a Gateway tunnel bore to handle passenger trains much less than freight with plate "H" clearances. The bores would have to be 10 - 15 feet lower to stay below the river and sediment.
2. Growth of the NYC area is going to increase freight traffic in and garbage, debris out.
3. Freight access and tangentially a passenger bypass of NYP is needed.
4, Bridge(s) tunnel(s) combinations are possible, Double tracks across Staten Island + bridge tunnel combinations also possible.
 #1588400  by photobug56
 
Could you explain what you are suggesting in more detail? How do you connect a line (ignoring that it would need to be rebuilt) to Brooklyn and it's rail network without a tunnel or another huge bridge like the VZ? Barges won't cut it.
 #1588403  by eolesen
 
Why does access have to be from New Jersey to Brooklyn? Why couldn't you build something between Stamford and Long Island, which could solve a whole different set of problems. Freight doesn't care if it backtracks a bit.

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 #1588406  by photobug56
 
Stamford is way out of the way - it's not just backtracking a bit. Freight coming from south and west takes a lot longer than it should. Lack of decent rail freight access to Long Island, which won't be corrected by adding a track on the HellGate, is a huge reason why freight gets trucked to Long Island rather than come by rail. And one of the top reasons traffic in NYC is so bad (the other being the crazy amount of for hire cars).
 #1588411  by Tom V
 
eolesen wrote:Why does access have to be from New Jersey to Brooklyn? Why couldn't you build something between Stamford and Long Island, which could solve a whole different set of problems. Freight doesn't care if it backtracks a bit.

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What freight is originating in New England heading for NYC? It’s all from the Port of Newark/Elizabeth or South and West. All of which has to cross the Hudson.


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 #1588426  by STrRedWolf
 
Must I remind people about the trash train that goes over the Selkirk hump, and the route it takes?

...and that it takes the Metro-North Hudson line up from at least the Bronx all the way up past Yonkers, past Poughkeepsie, and all the way up to the Castleton-on-Hudson bridge, before snaking it's way back down the Hudson on CSX track to be disposed of?

...and that the same train goes through a two-track section between Marble Hill and Spuyten Duyvil Metro-North stations?

...The same one that derailed there and killed Metro-North service on the Hudson line for a few days, several years back, until they cleaned up the mess and go a single track open while they rebuilt the other track?

...and that is going to be even riskier as more trash is generated year after year?

I'm going to put it simply: Crossing the Hudson north of the GW Bridge by a new freight rail bridge is off the table. Any solution routing through Metro-North territory is too risky and costly!

So how are you going to get all the new crap out of New York? Since we can't do barges, we're left with tunnels... and we got to tunnel under the Upper New York Bay, between Greenville and 65th street, where there is room and no NIMBYs around.
 #1588469  by photobug56
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:44 am Must I remind people about the trash train that goes over the Selkirk hump, and the route it takes?

...and that it takes the Metro-North Hudson line up from at least the Bronx all the way up past Yonkers, past Poughkeepsie, and all the way up to the Castleton-on-Hudson bridge, before snaking it's way back down the Hudson on CSX track to be disposed of?

...and that the same train goes through a two-track section between Marble Hill and Spuyten Duyvil Metro-North stations?

...The same one that derailed there and killed Metro-North service on the Hudson line for a few days, several years back, until they cleaned up the mess and go a single track open while they rebuilt the other track?

...and that is going to be even riskier as more trash is generated year after year?

I'm going to put it simply: Crossing the Hudson north of the GW Bridge by a new freight rail bridge is off the table. Any solution routing through Metro-North territory is too risky and costly!

So how are you going to get all the new crap out of New York? Since we can't do barges, we're left with tunnels... and we got to tunnel under the Upper New York Bay, between Greenville and 65th street, where there is room and no NIMBYs around.
Well said!
 #1588486  by west point
 
How many trucks pass from NJ to local points on Long Island on the average of every day? Suspect that it would take a double stack train every7 - 10 minutes thru a double track tunnel to carry all those containers. Now where are you going to build a terminal to move those containers. It would be a larger terminal than Long beach.

IMO terminal would have to turn containers in and out no later than 2 hours 24/7/365.

Where do get all the drivers?
 #1588487  by photobug56
 
No one expects all deliveries to get to Long Island by train, in particular ones that originate in NJ or CT. But we get freight from all over the country, including but not limited to UPS Ground and FedEx Ground. along with numerous other carriers. Some, of course, for raw materials, and some of that does come by rail. One lumber yard a bit west from me has it's own active siding, and its own specialized lumber cars. There are piles of abandoned rail lines on Long Island, some still near factories and other customers that could take rail delivery, but there is a terminal in Suffolk. And I'd be happy to get a chunk of freight out of LD trucks and onto rail - it would make a huge difference not just to traffic but to the condition of our roads.
 #1588523  by Dogbert666
 
Tom V wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:13 pm What freight is originating in New England heading for NYC? It’s all from the Port of Newark/Elizabeth or South and West. All of which has to cross the Hudson
Poland Spring was going to build a facility in southeast CT to carry their water into the area by rail. They were thinking southern CT as it would be a one rail carrier move (pan am). Now that CSX is buying pan am, it could be hauled all the way to NYC & LI. I haven't heard anything about their old plan, or any new ones in a post Pan-Am world, but the shifting landscape of new england rail could present new freight opportunities.
 #1588538  by ElectricTraction
 
andegold wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:48 amWouldn't a tunnel also facilitate the development of ports on the island anywhere from Brooklyn in the east all the way out to Montauk? Unload the ships on the island right onto the train and express to the mainland. Quicker (marginally) time to port for the ships but also no worries about bridge clearances or harbor traffic. Of course shoreline real estate is way too expensive for this now but it could have worked 50 or 75 years ago.
Not really. The port of NY&NJ is well established, and is located in the harbor where it is protected. The challenge with the idea of container trains in NYC is that there just isn't a whole lot of space to make it all work beyond a small TOFC or container shuttle operation from NJ to Queens. The whole northeast needs some container shuttles out of port of NY&NJ. There have been barge proposals, but I think shuttles via the Cross-Harbor Tunnel would make sense to Cedar Hill, Davisville, and Worcester, which could carry domestic/international COFC as well as domestic trailers in well cars. Somewhere out on Long Island would probably make sense as well for domestic/international COFC. Trails aren't possible due to the combination of low clearances for traditional TOFC, and the third rail that prohibits well cars.

Aside from intermodal, the primary purpose for the Cross-Harbor Tunnel is carload freight. There is already quite a bit of transload and warehouse type of freight that comes down the Hudson Line to Oak Point. A lot more carload freight would make sense if it didn't have to go over the Selkirk Hurdle, and logically, CSX or CSAO could run mixed freight up the corridor from Oak Island to serve the NY&A at Fresh Pond, CSX at Oak Point, and CSX at Cedar Hill.
Tom V wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:50 amSpeaking of increasing freight rail service into the city, the most obvious is to add back the fourth track to the Hells Gate Bridge. It used to have two passenger and two freight tracks, now it’s three ( 2 passenger 1 freight). That and improvements in Queens and Brooklyn to the existing freight lines can really do wonders for increasing freight rail into the city.
That only makes sense for TriboroRX or maybe for Cross-Harbor Freight. The current configuration just isn't capacity limited by the Hell Gate, or anything else for that matter, it's a matter of having to go over the Selkirk Hurdle.
photobug56 wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:43 amObviously some heading to New England and upstate NY, but judging from what I saw on Staten Island, a lot of that traffic is heading to NYC and Long Island.
Plus, you connect Oak Island to Cedar Hill and Worcester for traffic headed in that direction. This should be done as part of a national plan for freight rail electrification. Although it would still be a relatively small line compared to the major mainlines, it would be a feeder for CSX and NS on their main east-west routes if run by CSAO. Cedar Hill and CSOR could be mostly served out of Cedar Hill via Oak Island instead of West Springfield, as the B&A doesn't make any sense to electrify west of Worcester for MBTA. Fresh Pond and Oak Point could be entirely served out of Oak Island, and Oak Point would be significantly less busy, allowing for that track to be turned over to Amtrak/MN, and possibly some of the space redeveloped as transload space instead of rail yard.
lensovet wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:30 pmphoto bug, it's like the cutoff thread all over again. how are the freight trains going to clear the third rail? "lots of people"? please.
Carload freight clears just fine, and containers could go via COFC. TOFC just isn't possible over electrified LIRR territory, they either have to offload in Queens, or head up the New Haven Line with trailers in well cars, which would meet the 15'6" clearance there.
This might have some merit as you could include rapid transit tracks on it too and finally connect SI with the rest of the city without needing ferries.
In order to make it time competitive with the SI Ferry, and make up for not having all the connectivity that the ferry has, you basically have to make a tunnel in a straight line to Manhattan, which would be astronomically expensive. There's already provisions for a subway tunnel to Brooklyn, but it wouldn't be any faster than the ferry. They should focus on better transit on SI, not crazy proposals to link SI to Brooklyn.
eolesen wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:20 pmWhy does access have to be from New Jersey to Brooklyn? Why couldn't you build something between Stamford and Long Island, which could solve a whole different set of problems. Freight doesn't care if it backtracks a bit.
Huh? That's a way worse version of the Selkirk hurdle.
Dogbert666 wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:38 pmPoland Spring was going to build a facility in southeast CT to carry their water into the area by rail. They were thinking southern CT as it would be a one rail carrier move (pan am). Now that CSX is buying pan am, it could be hauled all the way to NYC & LI. I haven't heard anything about their old plan, or any new ones in a post Pan-Am world, but the shifting landscape of new england rail could present new freight opportunities.
So that's one shipper. There is already a robust freight rail link from New England to Long Island via the Hell Gate Line. The missing link is to New Jersey.
 #1588713  by Tom V
 
Some news today!
In addition to transit service, the existing Bay Ridge Branch corridor can service cross harbor rail freight and would dramatically reduce truck congestion regionally and expand goods movement facilities, thereby fortifying supply chains still struggling to recover from the pandemic. Transportation planners believe that cross harbor rail freight and passenger service on the Interborough Express can work together in concert, which could be a game-changer for the region. To that end Governor Hochul is also directing the Port Authority to complete environmental review for the Cross Harbor Rail Freight Tunnel.
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gover ... ooklyn-and


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 #1588739  by STrRedWolf
 
Okay, tunnel to Staten Island. Rebuild Conrail's North Shore Branch and extend it to meet the tunnel. You now have a second point of access for that trash train to go through.

Now only if there was a place that could take it and use it to generate power... :)
 #1588765  by Ken W2KB
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:21 am Okay, tunnel to Staten Island. Rebuild Conrail's North Shore Branch and extend it to meet the tunnel. You now have a second point of access for that trash train to go through.

Now only if there was a place that could take it and use it to generate power... :)
Much of NYC's trash is burned to produce electric energy. The video in the article covers NYC and vicinity truck, rail and marine facilities and how that trash is handled. https://www.covanta.com/what-we-do/waste-to-energy
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