Railroad Forums 

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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 #1583434  by Head-end View
 
I believe there are a total of eight platform tracks on two levels. Sounds a little bigger than Atlantic Terminal.
 #1583437  by Kelly&Kelly
 
Yes, Freightguy, I was there back then, and remember well Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren E. Burger's March, 1982 opinion:

..."If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well then it's a duck..." regarding the LIRR being a railroad and not some sort of rapid transit system that's exempt from the Railway Labor Act.

It was a huge blow to the State and the MTA which was banking on running it like a city agency.
 #1583446  by freightguy
 
Head-end View wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:29 pm I believe there are a total of eight platform tracks on two levels. Sounds a little bigger than Atlantic Terminal.
I'm not sure. I believe it stubs out into 8 yard tracks? How much stuff could you really turn at the height of rush hour 6am-9am and then fleet back north/east on two mainline tracks?
 #1583447  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Kelly&Kelly wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:36 pm Chief Justice Warren E. Burger's March, 1982 opinion:
..."If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well then it's a duck..." regarding the LIRR being a railroad.
PATH has blurred the lines between a railroad and rail transit, especially there are no more interchanges or
joint shared trackage. PANYNJ should have filed to withdraw PATH from FRA long ago.
 #1583451  by photobug56
 
Kelly&Kelly wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:20 am
Ignoring political issues and the like, in my experience starting in 1992 the LIRR parts of NYP - and any other part you had to go through to get to and from it, have been a run down dump. Now it will be a brighter place, much higher ceiling, no food, someday some unaffordable food, but I'm guessing it will continue to be a poorly maintained dump.
As to GCT, the homeless infested food court started out nice, but seems long since forgotten by MTA. Leading to the obvious question - however fancy the new well buried terminal starts out, do we really expect it to be any better maintained? Do we expect any more accountability? I'm guessing that within months of opening (no idea what year) one will be lucky to find a working UP escalator, a place to get rid of your garbage (other than the tracks), edible and affordable food (without getting pan handled). And that MTA figures this too and wants to keep costs super low and do what ever it can get away with in avoiding union entanglements.
 #1583453  by photobug56
 
One seat ride for riders on C3 cars with DE's / DM's is impossible because when those were ordered, they were specced a few inches too tall to fit the East River tunnel to be used by ESA. LIRR officials told me that face to face in 1996 - before any of the cars had been built. They 'promised' a quick, easy across the platform transfer at 'Sunnyside Station'.

I've asked MTA and LIRR officials how they will support diesel country passengers. Their faces would kind of go blank every single time I asked. No matter their gift of gab, they'd have no answer at all. Now ESA is 'supposed' to save commuters by GCT about 20 minutes each way daily. But if you have a 30 minute transfer at Hicksville or Huntington, or no room (going from a 12 car M7 to a 2 or 3 car C3) at Jamaica, you may not benefit at all. But I'm not surprised; beyond our LIRR pres (who commutes on the PJ branch), senior LIRR officials still seem to believe (as did an LIRR president some years back) that we only have farms east of Huntington so no need to worry about things like ESA for the farmers bringing their milk to market in Manhattan.
 #1583486  by freightguy
 
#1583453 by photobug56
Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:32 am
One seat ride for riders on C3 cars with DE's / DM's is impossible because when those were ordered, they were specced a few inches too tall to fit the East River tunnel to be used by ESA. LIRR officials told me that face to face in 1996 - before any of the cars had been built. They 'promised' a quick, easy across the platform transfer at 'Sunnyside Station

I'm sorry I meant NY Penn when they said the dual mode fleet would bring a bunch of diesel trains into Manhattan vs changing at Jamaica.
 #1583498  by photobug56
 
DM's, when they don't break down, do bring C3's into NYP without changing anywhere, but LIRR requires a DM at both ends of the train. But again, the DM's and C3's were designed to NOT fit into ESA's East River tunnel. By about 3 inches.
 #1583508  by Kelly&Kelly
 
The 63rd Street Tunnel's lower level was designed for the LIRR's M1s.

Construction of it began in 1969, funded by the 1967 Bond Act. The upper (subway) level opened in 1989.

The bi-level cars were considered a political "stop-gap novelty" with a limited lifespan. There was serious consideration that they may be replaced before the tunnel would ever be used.
 #1583513  by photobug56
 
I don't doubt that last point, except that LIRR replaces cars what, every 50 years or so? LIRR did the BITANIC, and while logistics were awful, and they ignored basic maintenance (like battery replacement), experimented with magnetic couplers for cables. the idea was actually good - and they knew that before C3's were in production. They also knew the dimensions of cars, tunnel, etc. and made a decision that wasn't so swift - and I was told that decision 25 years ago. Also, back then they told members of their ESA advisory committee that work was starting, and hinted that it would be done within about 10 years - not 25 or 30. But even if they knew that it wouldn't make it into service until sometime in the 2020's, again, they knew that their replacement cycle was in real life much longer. BUT - never forget the LIRR president (who started out as a ticket clerk) who truly believed that anything past Huntington was farm country and then you begin to see that senior LIRR 'management' probably saw little use for 'diesel country' commuter service, let alone direct into Manhattan on either side. Those management ranks have long been extremely resistant to passengers from diesel country, Phil Eng being the only exception I know of (I know what train and what car on that train on the PJ line he likes to ride from what station - he told me).
 #1583517  by R36 Combine Coach
 
photobug56 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:20 pm I don't doubt that last point, except that LIRR replaces cars what, every 50 years or so?
Going back to the original MP54 electric fleet (1908-1930), these lasted 40-60+ plus years, replaced
by M-1s in early 70s.

The postwar fleet (MP72/P72/MP75) did a respectable 40 or so years by 1999, factoring in diesel coach conversion
for the MP72/75s.

M-1s lasted into their mid 30s (all gone by early 2007), none made it 40+. M-3s seem to just barely hit 35.
 #1583529  by photobug56
 
But the M1's and M3's might have done well with complete overhaul and modernization. But that, I guess, doesn't put as much money in unspecified pockets.
 #1583531  by Head-end View
 
I'm dating myself here, but it seems odd when I hear anyone talk about modernization of the M1's. I still remember them coming into service circa 1970 and being considered at that time to be the absolute state-of-the art in modern rail transportation. And what a treat it was to transfer to one of them across the platform at Jamaica, from a rattletrap MP54.
 #1583534  by photobug56
 
Other than the missing head rests and the awful maintenance (duct tape seat coverings), they weren't bad, though the seats on the BITANIC (C1's?) were more comfortable.
 #1583542  by ExCon90
 
freightguy wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:00 pm
Head-end View wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:29 pm I believe there are a total of eight platform tracks on two levels. Sounds a little bigger than Atlantic Terminal.
I'm not sure. I believe it stubs out into 8 yard tracks? How much stuff could you really turn at the height of rush hour 6am-9am and then fleet back north/east on two mainline tracks?
From what I recall seeing, there are to be some extensions into tail tracks beyond the platforms, but not 8. However, even without the tail tracks, if arrivals were scheduled every 3 minutes, a given track would have 24 minutes available to turn a train before the next one was due. Penn Station now handles on 6 station tracks the traffic fed to it on 4 main tracks, although admittedly West Side Yard is available to get some of them out of the way. But it could be done.

Maybe someone knows how many arrivals were handled by the IC at Randolph St. in Chicago by having the crews "step back" and take the next train out on that track instead of the one they brought in.