wrong railing on the subway

apologies if this has been asked
I did try a search using "wrong rail" both with and without quotes
each time the site "ignored rail"

anyway - reverse travel. not uncommon on MNRR where all tracks out of GCT are reverse signalled
and a lot of LIRR is also reverse signalled is it not?

are there any areas on the subway (save stub terminals and "center 3rd/express track") that are reverse signalled?
ie on 4 track lines or two track lines
if so is there ever "wrong railing" on the subway?
and if tracks are not so signalled could a train wrong rail in extreme cases? how would this be done?
or is it an absolute no no punishable by being shot and sent to the Russian front?

flexliner wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:16 am apologies if this has been asked
I did try a search using "wrong rail" both with and without quotes
each time the site "ignored rail"

anyway - reverse travel. not uncommon on MNRR where all tracks out of GCT are reverse signalled
and a lot of LIRR is also reverse signalled is it not?

are there any areas on the subway (save stub terminals and "center 3rd/express track") that are reverse signalled?
ie on 4 track lines or two track lines
if so is there ever "wrong railing" on the subway?
and if tracks are not so signalled could a train wrong rail in extreme cases? how would this be done?
or is it an absolute no no punishable by being shot and sent to the Russian front?

Such reverse running /wrong railing would only be done with authorization and then usually with a supervisor (TSS) on board. I have never heard of any unauthorized moves (I am not a transit employee but such action would eventually make it to railfans). That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened (and possibly go unnoticed/reported).

In most areas in the subway (and elevated sections) where there only 2 tracks there are signals for both directions.

Examples:

Lenox line (2,3) between 135th St and 96th St
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown line (G) south of Queens Plaza to around Carrol St
Canarsie line (L)

The Dyre Av line does not have reverse signaling between Pelham Parkway and south of Dyre Av but there were times years ago were all service was on one track during weekend projects. Basically it was just a shuttle providing service between Dyre and E180.

The Lex between north of Grand Central to south of 125 is 2 tracks on each level but is not signaled in both directions except in a few places:
north of 116th (for moves into the spur tracks south of 125//)
86th St (both levels) to reverse moves sending southbound trains back northbound
59th St (upper level only) to moves in/out of the spur north of the stationr

Allan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:56 am Lenox line (2,3) between 135th St and 96th St

During summer 1998, single track operation (every 24 minutes) was on the Lenox Line during off-peak and
weekend for a major reconstruction project. Most 3 service terminated at 137th on the Broadway Local, while
peak hour 2 service was "split", running via 5 (Lexington Express) in reverse peak direction.

Queensboro Plaza upper level (7) is now bidirectional. Weekend and overnight trains often terminate on upper
level when there is no service between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:43 am

Allan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:56 am Lenox line (2,3) between 135th St and 96th St

During summer 1998, single track operation (every 24 minutes) was on the Lenox Line during off-peak and
weekend for a major reconstruction project. Most 3 service terminated at 137th on the Broadway Local, while
peak hour 2 service was "split", running via 5 (Lexington Express) in reverse peak direction.

Queensboro Plaza upper level (7) is now bidirectional. Weekend and overnight trains often terminate on upper
level when there is no service between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan.

I was going to edit my post to mention the "Lenox Invert " project in 1998 but you beat me to it.

Thank you.

It can be done but it's a very slow and onerous operation. Only on the overnights and only with some extra hands on deck.

An "Absolute Block" must be established. if it's a "one north - one south, etc" operation there is (or used to be when I was there) an employee carrying a "paddle" which represents authority to occupy the absolute block. Back and forth in the Canarsie tubes was the one I remember at the moment.

Things could get hairy when an extra train ran in one direction and two needed to go through in the same direction. It could be done safely and was done, but I betcha they wouldn't these days. Someone once made up their own way to do it and the results were... time consuming to unravel.

Used to make some overtime cranking/blocking/clamping a switch all night when the reverse move wasn't available as a signaled route. It's hazy but I think that one was single track from the Green to the Bridge.

From a main line railroad perspective, the tracks that NYCT considers "Single Direction of Running" work pretty much like Rule 251 "Current of Traffic" territory where a Train Order, Form D, or Track Warrant would be needed to run reverse.

Generally speaking (the system is huge I don't expect a comprehensive list), what lines are bidirectionally signaled? A few are mentioned in the first reply, but are any of the four-track trunk lines for instance?

Many two-track segments are bi-directional, especially river tunnels. The Steinway Tunnel (7) often has
single track operation overnight (passengers instructed to board at opposite track at Hunters Point
and Vernon-Jackson).

The shuttle is obviously (though one train on same track).

SIRT is also bidirectional. Quote from SIRT timetable:

SIR system maintenance is generally performed Monday through Friday between
9:00 AM and 3:30 PM. During this time, trains may be diverted to operate alternately on the
same track in both directions.

In addition, trains may operate against the normal direction of traffic at any given time.

MattW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:26 pm Generally speaking (the system is huge I don't expect a comprehensive list), what lines are bidirectionally signaled? A few are mentioned in the first reply, but are any of the four-track trunk lines for instance?

I can't think of entire lines but I do know there are sections near some stations (or in stations) which can serve as 'terminals' for some services are signaled in both directions.

These are some I can think of right off the top of my head.

Coney Island - tracks 2 (N), tracks 3 &
4 (Q) and 5 & 6 (F) are bidirectional. Tracks 1 (N), 7 & 8 (D) are stub ended but are also bidirectional.

Brighton Beach - the express tracks are bidirectional.

Kings Highway B & Q - express tracks south of the station.

57 St/7th Av (N,Q,R,W) - the express tracks in the station are bidirectional. This was the terminal for the Q prior to the extension to the 63rd St and 2nd Av sections.

Grand Central / 42St - the uptown local and express tracks in the station are bidirectional. Trains coming south can be crossed over to the uptown platform and sent back uptown. This has happened a number of times including on 9/11/2001 and in later years during weekend projects where it was necessary to suspend service south of the station. Trains on the downtown tracks can't be crossed over to the uptown tracks.

Atlantic Av - (2,3,4,5) center platform (express tracks) and possibly the uptown local track. The switches north of the station are similar to those north of Grand Central in that southbound trains can be terminated there and sent back uptown. At various times in the past, Atlantic Av was a mid-day terminal for 4 and 5 trains.

I am sure there are other examples.

This is going back a long way, but I recall a multiple-weekend GO during the late 1980's that had northbound weekend Brighton line trains pull into the Kings Highway station on the normal local track, the train would then reverse southbound across two switches to the southbound express track. It would then proceed northbound on the southbound express track and stop again at Kings Highway before traveling north on the southbound express track. I think it stayed on the southbound express track to just before Prospect Park.

Allan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:42 am

I have to correct some things here. I have personally operated my southbound 5 train from the downtown express track crossing over to the northbound express track and terminated and changed ends for uptown service. I have also operated my southbound 3 train into Nevins Street and terminated. I then proceeded southbound into Atlantic Avenue crossing from the local track, across 3 tracks and arrived on the northbound local track and changed ends for northbound service back to Lenox Terminal. Back in the day it was common practice to wrong rail southbound 2 trains from Jackson Avenue through both 149th Street stations, through the river tunnel and cross them back over north of 135th Street and Lenox Avenue. Each move I've mentioned was done under signal protection. Carry on.

I should also point out that I've taken my southbound 5 train out of service at Fulton St ( Lex ), changed ends and proceeded northbound and taken the interlocking switch between Brooklyn Bridge and Fulton Street and became a northbound express at Brooklyn Bridge. I was allowed to make that move because the dispatcher at Grand Central was a former tower operator at that location and he knew that I'd made that move when I worked midnight work trains. 99% of the time this move would have been made with a supervisor on board.

Trainmaster5 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:14 pm

Allan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:42 am

I have to correct some things here. I have personally operated my southbound 5 train from the downtown express track crossing over to the northbound express track and terminated and changed ends for uptown service. I have also operated my southbound 3 train into Nevins Street and terminated. I then proceeded southbound into Atlantic Avenue crossing from the local track, across 3 tracks and arrived on the northbound local track and changed ends for northbound service back to Lenox Terminal. Back in the day it was common practice to wrong rail southbound 2 trains from Jackson Avenue through both 149th Street stations, through the river tunnel and cross them back over north of 135th Street and Lenox Avenue. Each move I've mentioned was done under signal protection. Carry on.

Thanks.

Actually, you confirmed what I wrote about Grand Central. The move you described is what I said - that a downtown train can be crossed over to the uptown tracks/platform to return uptown.

The move you mentioned between Brooklyn Bridge and Fulton is an interesting one. I am well aware of the switch from tracks two to three but that was the first time I heard of it being used. It must a rare occurrence (vs going down to Bowling Green and looping around South Ferry).

You also confirmed what I said about Atlantic Av with downtown trains can be switched to the uptown tracks. Your experience confirmed for me that the uptown local track is connected to the potential move.

By the way, with new switches installed south of Jackson Av, the practice of wrong railing trains to/from 149th-Mott Av (sorry I mean Grand Concourse) and sometimes to/from 135th still happens during weekend G.O.s. If I recall correctly such a G.O. was in effect several weeks ago. During this time all 5 trains ran between Dyre and E180 and 2 trains ran to Manhattan on 20 minute headways.


(This is what I like about this board, you have railfans (longtime like me) who know and may have seen a lot of the basics and transit employees (such as Trainmaster5) who have actually experienced performing the functions discussed.))

Think it's important to distinguish between areas which are bidirectional, and ones which are fully bidirectionally signaled. The Cranberry tube, to give one example, has traffic levers, but reverse movements do not have full signal/speed protection between interlockings (which also informs the presence of reverse running speed limit signs). There are lines where more complete reverse signaling does exist, though. Lenox, WPR from 142 St Jct to Jackson, and Myrtle are good examples; Myrtle's reverse signaling was employed during the viaduct closure and dual single track shuttle op.