Better food on non-LD trains - is it doable?

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:58 pm How hungry will most passengers get in less than 2.25 hours?

Average length of a pro basketball or hockey game is 2.5 hours. Do you propose telling the concessionaires there that they are wasting their time -- that no one could possibly want food at the arena?

Point is that people may decide to eat or drink at any time, if the offerings are good.

And FWIW, that site shows avg. trip length on Empire is 188 miles (~4 hours.)

rohr turbo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:20 pm Average length of a pro basketball or hockey game is 2.5 hours. Do you propose telling the concessionaires there that they are wasting their time -- that no one could possibly want food at the arena?
Point is that people may decide to eat or drink at any time, if the offerings are good.
And FWIW, that site shows avg. trip length on Empire is 188 miles (~4 hours.)

I was responding specifically for the NEC Regionals, not the Empire Service trains. But let's look at them if you so desire more closely.
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 52/15a.pdf
Empire/Maple Leaf service
Trips by length, 2019
0- 99 mi 21.8%
100- 199 mi 59.5%
200- 299 mi 8.0%
300- 399 mi 4.2%
400- 499 mi 6.5%
500+ mi <0.1%
Passengers 1,587,354
Average trip 162 miles
A similar average trip distance, but a higher percentage of passengers are riding further than on the NEC Regionals. Never-the-less 81.3% of the passengers are on trips less than 200 miles.
Even at a low average speed of 50 mph, over 80% of the passengers are on the train for less than 4 hours.

So how many of them are on the train over 300 and 400 miles?
Some math
1,587,354 per year / 365 days per year = 4,349 passengers per day
Back in 2019, there were 9 trains in each direction not including the Lake Shore Limited, or 18 trains a day.
Some more math fun,
4,349 passengers per day / 18 trains a day = 242 passengers per train
over 300 miles = 0.108 x 242 = 26 passengers per train over 300 miles
over 400 miles = -.066 x 242 = 16 passengers per train over 400 miles
less than 300 miles = 242 - 16 = 226 passenger per train less than 300 miles
How many of those 26 passengers are going to be willing to pay $20 per meal including drinks at the cafe?

Lots of numbers, but where is the evidence for your assertion that only passengers traveling more than 3 hours will buy food?

I remember when there were cafe cars on Empire service (ALB-NY) and they seemed to do a steady business, sometimes with lines waiting.

As for Empire, even by your numbers 80% of travellers go more than 2 hours.

OP was asking an even broader question, to include non-LD day trains, state supported, etc which will have even longer average ride length than Empire & NER corridors. I continue to believe that innovative/decent quality food offerings across all these trains could generate more revenue both directly and indirectly.

rohr turbo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:40 pm Lots of numbers, but where is the evidence for your assertion that only passengers traveling more than 3 hours will buy food?

I remember when there were cafe cars on Empire service (ALB-NY) and they seemed to do a steady business, sometimes with lines waiting.

As for Empire, even by your numbers 80% of travellers go more than 2 hours.

OP was asking an even broader question, to include non-LD day trains, state supported, etc which will have even longer average ride length than Empire & NER corridors. I continue to believe that innovative/decent quality food offerings across all these trains could generate more revenue both directly and indirectly.

How often do you eat a meal? Hopefully not every three hours.
Yes, 80% of the riders are aboard the train over 2 hours (100 miles)
But only 50% of the riders are aboard the train over 3 hours (150 miles)
And only 20% are on the train over 4 hours (200 miles)
That is assuming an average speed of 50 mph.

There is only one attendnat in the cafe car servicing passengers. I also remember when there were fresh diner style food served in these cars. They had one fast order cook, one waitress, and one food service manager in the car. Yes, three vs just the one today, it is a completely different world.

If the new V-2 baggage cars have proper electrical connections cannot see why extra items wouldn't be stored there/ ? Its about time food service gets back in to gear. ? Another is the ability to pre pay for food service at time of reservation. that would require cut off times based on lead times at restocking points, If WASH was a restocking point then it would be location defining cut off times . The next restocking points would define available meals.
Exam[;e: too late reservation at WASH but train partially restocked at CLT. So can get meals south of CLT . This example is not for any possible train but just example.

BTW== enough personnel to have 24/7 service at least in lounge.

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:17 pm How often do you eat a meal? Hopefully not every three hours.

Haha, no. But take a look at all the three hour windows a traveler might be on a day train --- I think the majority will intercept one meal time. And the rare ones that don't (say 2-5 pm) are still prime opportunities for a snack and beverage.

I hear you that the staffing downgrade from 3 to 1 severely limits what can be done in an Amcafe today. I believe the OP was asking whether better food service could be realistically delivered if Amtrak redesigned from scratch.

To further this argument of folks grabbing a bite to eat. Granted its been over 20 years since I stood behind the counter and things have changed on the Empire Service. Things I do remember certain trains did little to no business what so ever less than $200 round trip. Some did a little. Morning trains even with the fresh bagels back then it was still mostly coffee. Early evening drinks and snacks. Falls trains could be busy around dinner or lunch but not anything to crazy unless it was holiday travel.

I still remember one of the questions I was asked in my interview about my time working at Stewarts and the amount of money I could handle in a shift. I explained that I worked in one of the busiest lotto stores in the company and on a good night we could take in 500 to 1000 in lotto alone. Think I only hit those type numbers working Buffalo Bills specials and maybe the Friday before Travers in Saratoga.

Arborwayfan yes they consider coffee cups revenue, not the amount of coffee sold. I bring up coffee cups because they cost me a bit of money when I was behind the counter. The train I was working at the time would deadhead back to Albany. The LSA would layover. When the train got back to Albany it would be "stripped" of all items. Well the grey tote with my paperwork and coffee cups got lost some how. They were found a couple of days later and placed back into stock but because I couldnt prove they were the cups off my train it cost my about 100.00 of my money.

Ive had cars broken into, had police reports to cover my @ss, had folks try and steal or borrow stuff dosent matter if the numbers dont match it comes out of your pocket.

Long time since I had MRE's! As to a 2 to 3 hour ride, yes, you can get hungry. You rushed to get to the train, perhaps off of a commuter train or a subway ride. Didn't get a chance to grab a nice meal to eat on the train. Or even a decent snack. And a low end nuke burger with steamed out bun just doesn't cut it.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:09 am As to a 2 to 3 hour ride, yes, you can get hungry. You rushed to get to the train, perhaps off of a commuter train or a subway ride. Didn't get a chance to grab a nice meal to eat on the train. Or even a decent snack. And a low end nuke burger with steamed out bun just doesn't cut it.

Yes, you can get hungry in 3 hours if you failed to plan properly and failed to dine before getting on the regional train. Is that Amtrak's fault?
Someone else keeps bring up the idea that all non LD regional trains have V2 baggage cars, why? Only a select few do.
How many good meals do you think one person can cook while at the same time servicing customers that want chips, candy, cookies, sodas, coffee, blankets, cards, and hats? Yep, that meal might be slightly over or under cooked with all those distractions. That's why the food choices are microwavable, just chunk the food item into the microwave and forget about it, let the timer over or under cook the food.

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:58 pm At the average speeds around 70 mph, it only takes 4.3 hours to travel 300 miles, and around 6.5 hours to travel 456 miles. That's for around 2% of the total passengers on these trains. The average trip of 156 miles only takes less than 2.25 hours at an average speed of 70 mph. How hungry will most passengers get in less than 2.25 hours?

You're assuming they're jumping on a train right after breakfast. What if they're boarding at a time where they *will* get hungry and willing to spend that $20 for a meal & drink?

Lets rerun those NEC figures, using the 2018 published schedule (giving exception to the Night Owl in it's current incarnation), and put in a few assumptions.

• Assume some peak dining periods: 6a-10a breakfast, 11a-3p lunch, 6p-10p dinner. Yes, these are generous but some may want to dine early and some are coming on board late. We will assume at least a 90 window inside those periods.
• Now lets assume a two hour minimum travel time, to trim off those who are only going a few stops... or they're getting on/off at major stops with restaurants in them. (Philly/DC falls into that)

Going through that and counting only NEC Regionals running Monday through Friday between Boston and DC , we get 24 trains where somebody is going to want some food: 9 breakfast (including the Night Owl), 7 lunch, and 8 dinner. We'll use that figure to represent all days to get a rough estimate. Of course, some people are going to get food twice per trip.

Now lets take a look at your linked stats and the schedule, which has a breakdown of pairings. The two-hour travel time limit comes out to 160 miles, given the average Regional speed is 80 mph. To simplify things, we can concentrate on the 200-299 and above figures (meaning we're finding who's going to get at least one meal on board).

Take 2019. So that's 33.8+1.6+0.7=36.1% of trips taking over two hours. With a figure of 8.825 million riders, it's 3.19 million folks looking for food onboard that year... or 363 people per train that fits those assumptions above.

That's a lot of hungry people.

Will it be that much in practice? Likely not. Folk are going to bring food in from the stations.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:20 am You're assuming they're jumping on a train right after breakfast. What if they're boarding at a time where they *will* get hungry and willing to spend that $20 for a meal & drink?

Lets rerun those NEC figures, using the 2018 published schedule (giving exception to the Night Owl in it's current incarnation), and put in a few assumptions.

• Assume some peak dining periods: 6a-10a breakfast, 11a-3p lunch, 6p-10p dinner. Yes, these are generous but some may want to dine early and some are coming on board late. We will assume at least a 90 window inside those periods.
• Now lets assume a two hour minimum travel time, to trim off those who are only going a few stops... or they're getting on/off at major stops with restaurants in them. (Philly/DC falls into that)

Going through that and counting only NEC Regionals running Monday through Friday between Boston and DC , we get 24 trains where somebody is going to want some food: 9 breakfast (including the Night Owl), 7 lunch, and 8 dinner. We'll use that figure to represent all days to get a rough estimate. Of course, some people are going to get food twice per trip.

Now lets take a look at your linked stats and the schedule, which has a breakdown of pairings. The two-hour travel time limit comes out to 160 miles, given the average Regional speed is 80 mph. To simplify things, we can concentrate on the 200-299 and above figures (meaning we're finding who's going to get at least one meal on board).

Take 2019. So that's 33.8+1.6+0.7=36.1% of trips taking over two hours. With a figure of 8.825 million riders, it's 3.19 million folks looking for food onboard that year... or 363 people per train that fits those assumptions above.

That's a lot of hungry people.

Will it be that much in practice? Likely not. Folk are going to bring food in from the stations.

One meal, but does that meal have to be dinner? How many of these meals will be lunch?
What do most people eat for lunch? A steak or chicken meal , a sandwich, a salad, or just soup?
Could that sole cafe attendant actually cook a great steak while servicing other passengers, or should that one attendant service the diner customers 10-15 minutes straight cooking and preparing a fresh meal before servicing another?
I'm not suggesting Amtrak's cafes should not be servicing food at all, I am suggesting that the quality of the food should be limited to what one cafe attendant can do properly. And with the limited number of passengers being aboard the train limited to just a few hours, that the quality of the food choices being available should be limited.
You can serve fresh and packaged foods that do not require cooking at all. An orange, apple, banana, nuts, cookies, candy, chips, crackers, bagels are examples that do not require cooking at all, more than enough for a quick lunch. In fact, all of which can be bought aboard the train by yourself in your day bag. No need to worry about diet incompatibilities if you brought your own food aboard.

Most LSAs are not short order cooks and the only tools at their disposal are a microwave and convection oven. I received no official training on heating up food. Fortunately my culinary background gave me a clue. Some of us on here are old enough to remember preheating the oven then placing the TV dinner on the middle rack and waiting 45 minutes for it to heat up. Please tell me how that's going to work out on a crowded train.

Folks on here mention frozen food I would have to look up the FDA regs but I believe if it comes in frozen it stays that way till its ready to be served. Warm foods have to kept within certain temps at all times. They condemn a sandwich every trip just for temperature taking inside the cooler. The FDA dosent mess around, you better have that plus all your sanitation gear. We would not want a law suit over food poising now would we??

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:46 am One meal, but does that meal have to be dinner? How many of these meals will be lunch?

As indicated, these are worse case, and generic. Yes, there will be specific cases.

What do most people eat for lunch? A steak or chicken meal , a sandwich, a salad, or just soup?
Could that sole cafe attendant actually cook a great steak while servicing other passengers, or should that one attendant service the diner customers 10-15 minutes straight cooking and preparing a fresh meal before servicing another?
I'm not suggesting Amtrak's cafes should not be servicing food at all, I am suggesting that the quality of the food should be limited to what one cafe attendant can do properly. And with the limited number of passengers being aboard the train limited to just a few hours, that the quality of the food choices being available should be limited.
You can serve fresh and packaged foods that do not require cooking at all. An orange, apple, banana, nuts, cookies, candy, chips, crackers, bagels are examples that do not require cooking at all, more than enough for a quick lunch. In fact, all of which can be bought aboard the train by yourself in your day bag. No need to worry about diet incompatibilities if you brought your own food aboard.

I agree with that. I would be limiting it to "in-flight meals" or the Flex Dining meals -- stuff that can be microwaved easily and can be handled by cafe staff. I'm not expecting a full diner when I'm just going DC to NYC or even Boston. But DC to Pittsburgh with a change in Philly? Okay, I can get food in Philly but that train gets into Pittsburgh around 8pm, and a zapped burger or sandwich... is kinda last resort.

I think the quickest upgrade Amtrak can make is to coffee and beer / wine selections. If Amtrak offered really good coffee, and a selection of regional beers and upgraded wines that would go a long way towards improving the experience both in diners and cafes. Personally I'm not a Dunkin drinker, I prefer Starbucks. They could offer Peet's for California services, headquartered in Emeryville, Caribou for the Mid West services, Dunkin for the NEC and Starbucks for the Long Distance trains.

Upgrade the Wines and Beers, have the regional selections for the Northwest, California etc.. and the selections for the long distance trains.

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:15 am

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:09 am As to a 2 to 3 hour ride, yes, you can get hungry. You rushed to get to the train, perhaps off of a commuter train or a subway ride. Didn't get a chance to grab a nice meal to eat on the train. Or even a decent snack. And a low end nuke burger with steamed out bun just doesn't cut it.

Yes, you can get hungry in 3 hours if you failed to plan properly and failed to dine before getting on the regional train. Is that Amtrak's fault?
Someone else keeps bring up the idea that all non LD regional trains have V2 baggage cars, why? Only a select few do.
How many good meals do you think one person can cook while at the same time servicing customers that want chips, candy, cookies, sodas, coffee, blankets, cards, and hats? Yep, that meal might be slightly over or under cooked with all those distractions. That's why the food choices are microwavable, just chunk the food item into the microwave and forget about it, let the timer over or under cook the food.

I never said that microwaving is unacceptable. But what I can get in a freezer section at a supermarket is far better than the garbage Amtrak currently nukes in cafe cars.

A 2 plus hour trip is long enough to need food that you couldn't get ahead of time. At Penn, the food court is over run with beggars and the mentally ill, so there's nowhere to grab a meal before you rush for the train after you dealt with unexpected subway or commuter line delays.

And if you are taking a several hour trip, perhaps 12 plus hours on a train, you need DINING options. A dining car and a decent 'cafe' car.