Railroad Forums 

  • Acela Disposition Discussion

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1574677  by ApproachMedium
 
Just as little tiddys of info here. The new trainsets it has been confirmed that due to the single pan operation, they can now do 165mph with non constant tension wire. So much more of the railroad that currently offers only 135mph max operations can now run close to 160. Single pan ops eliminates the rear panto bounce at higher speeds as well as the rear panto bounce from two trains passing at high speeds.

Also the max curve speed for the new set is now 150mph vs 130mph of the old sets. Likely the rollout of these trains will be in current time slots, with trains that see the most ridership.

As far as speeding up service goes until you get rid of the station area slowdowns, you wont see any major decrease in time to travel. 30mph thru balimore for a few miles, 30 for about 3 or 4 in philly, Wilmington, Shore curve etc. Thats what really kills the running time for anything.
 #1574697  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:04 am Out of box thinking.
could they be stacked into a hotel/ bar of some sort?
You'll get into weight issues for existing hotel/bar. Turning the equipment into a hotel/bar? Possible, if you take out the engines (see The Jane and the Viewliners). Maybe have that train hotel in Toledo...
 #1574711  by daybeers
 
ApproachMedium wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:07 pm Just as little tiddys of info here. The new trainsets it has been confirmed that due to the single pan operation, they can now do 165mph with non constant tension wire. So much more of the railroad that currently offers only 135mph max operations can now run close to 160. Single pan ops eliminates the rear panto bounce at higher speeds as well as the rear panto bounce from two trains passing at high speeds.

Also the max curve speed for the new set is now 150mph vs 130mph of the old sets. Likely the rollout of these trains will be in current time slots, with trains that see the most ridership.

As far as speeding up service goes until you get rid of the station area slowdowns, you wont see any major decrease in time to travel. 30mph thru balimore for a few miles, 30 for about 3 or 4 in philly, Wilmington, Shore curve etc. Thats what really kills the running time for anything.
That's great news! How many miles would that be at/near 160?
 #1574724  by Fan Railer
 
daybeers wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:52 am That's great news! How many miles would that be at/near 160?
Significantly more than is now at 150. My calculations are below:
Current 150 Territory:
[17.4] MP 154.3 to MP 171.7 (Kingston to Davisville)
[5.6] MP 174.5 to MP 180.1 (TF Green area)
[10.5] MP 194.5 to MP 205 (Attleboro to Mansfield)

Total: 33.5 miles

Future 150/160 Territory (inclusive of above):
[22.9] MP 32.8 to MP 55.7 (COUNTY to HAM)
[21.3] MP 29.7 to MP 51.0 (RAGAN to BACON)
[6.3] MP 51.0 to MP 57.3 (BACON to PRINCE)*
[13.5] MP 205.0 to MP 218.5 (Mansfield to RTE 128)*

*Currently 130 mph (non-curve restriction), may only upgrade to 145 mph or 150 mph.

Total (inclusive of current 150 territory): 97.5 miles (77.7 miles without * territories)
Last edited by Fan Railer on Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
 #1574725  by mcgrath618
 
If that is true, pretty much the entire length of the line from DC to Philadelphia can now be 160 mph operation. Obvious exceptions include Baltimore and Wilmington.

This also means that most of the line from Philadelphia to New York can be raised. Most of PA is 125 mph (which I’m assuming can be raised to 150?) and most of Jersey is 135, with the obvious exception of the Jersey Speedway which will now be 185 mph.
 #1574728  by Fan Railer
 
mcgrath618 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:53 am If that is true, pretty much the entire length of the line from DC to Philadelphia can now be 160 mph operation. Obvious exceptions include Baltimore and Wilmington.

This also means that most of the line from Philadelphia to New York can be raised. Most of PA is 125 mph (which I’m assuming can be raised to 150?) and most of Jersey is 135, with the obvious exception of the Jersey Speedway which will now be 185 mph.
Not necessarily. You still have a LOT of curves between BAL and PHL. Track condition also factors in. There are many sections of track that in that territory are still only good for 100-125 mph. See my above comment for the specific sections that are currently MAS 130-135 that would see the immediate speed upgrade.

I won't comment on upgraded speeds beyond 160 at the moment, as that would require a change to the cant deficiency rules that Amtrak currently follows.
 #1574729  by mcgrath618
 
Fan Railer wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:23 am
mcgrath618 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:53 am If that is true, pretty much the entire length of the line from DC to Philadelphia can now be 160 mph operation. Obvious exceptions include Baltimore and Wilmington.

This also means that most of the line from Philadelphia to New York can be raised. Most of PA is 125 mph (which I’m assuming can be raised to 150?) and most of Jersey is 135, with the obvious exception of the Jersey Speedway which will now be 185 mph.
Not necessarily. You still have a LOT of curves between BAL and PHL. Track condition also factors in. There are many sections of track that in that territory are still only good for 100-125 mph. See my above comment for the specific sections that are currently MAS 130-135 that would see the immediate speed upgrade.

I won't comment on upgraded speeds beyond 160 at the moment, as that would require a change to the cant deficiency rules that Amtrak currently follows.
When I was on the Acela about a week ago on this section, we were holding 135 through those curves pretty well. I thought the limiting thing here was the catenary? Would the Acela IIs with their active tilting not be able to take those curves at higher speeds?

Something else I forgot are the bridges over the Gunpowder, Bush, and Susquehanna Rivers. I don’t think those will be seeing any 160 mph trains anytime soon.
 #1574730  by WhartonAndNorthern
 
ApproachMedium wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:07 pm Just as little tiddys of info here. The new trainsets it has been confirmed that due to the single pan operation, they can now do 165mph with non constant tension wire. So much more of the railroad that currently offers only 135mph max operations can now run close to 160. Single pan ops eliminates the rear panto bounce at higher speeds as well as the rear panto bounce from two trains passing at high speeds.

Also the max curve speed for the new set is now 150mph vs 130mph of the old sets. Likely the rollout of these trains will be in current time slots, with trains that see the most ridership.

I'm confused... is this after they add fins to the pans? Or are you saying they don't need fins if they run without a "double pantograph order?"
 #1574731  by Fan Railer
 
mcgrath618 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:35 am When I was on the Acela about a week ago on this section, we were holding 135 through those curves pretty well. I thought the limiting thing here was the catenary? Would the Acela IIs with their active tilting not be able to take those curves at higher speeds?
The limiting factor for the 130 curve restriction on the current Acelas is the fact that they track terribly on curves at speeds higher than 130. The 135 restriction on level tangent track with conventional catenary is due to the double pan operation.
Last edited by Fan Railer on Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1574732  by Fan Railer
 
WhartonAndNorthern wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:38 am I'm confused... is this after they add fins to the pans? Or are you saying they don't need fins if they run without a "double pantograph order?"
The fins are still a necessary modification to allow the pantograph to run in the arm forward direction, which it does when the trainset is running rear-pan-up configuration. So yes, this is after the addition of the fins and any other mods that they may have done since then.
 #1574740  by Matt Johnson
 
Fan Railer wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:42 am
The limiting factor for the 130 curve restriction on the current Acelas is the fact that they track terribly on curves at speeds higher than 130.
Yeah, I remember when that was implemented due to the reported poor tracking during early testing. I was hopeful that the new Acela could handle some curves faster, and that's definitely good news regarding the next gen Acela. Not sure if the Monmouth Junction S curve will go all the way up to 150, but the very slight curve between Princeton Junction and Hamilton should. Also, the curve just north of Kingston, where we slowed to 130 as seen at the 12:15 mark here:

 #1574763  by Fan Railer
 
Matt Johnson wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:44 am
Fan Railer wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:42 am
The limiting factor for the 130 curve restriction on the current Acelas is the fact that they track terribly on curves at speeds higher than 130.
Yeah, I remember when that was implemented due to the reported poor tracking during early testing. I was hopeful that the new Acela could handle some curves faster, and that's definitely good news regarding the next gen Acela. Not sure if the Monmouth Junction S curve will go all the way up to 150, but the very slight curve between Princeton Junction and Hamilton should. Also, the curve just north of Kingston, where we slowed to 130 as seen at the 12:15 mark here:

They've been testing into the curve at Deans at 155 mph, so I don't see why they wouldn't be able to run at 150 there with the new trainset.
 #1574765  by Fan Railer
 
daybeers wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:07 pm Wow, another 66.4 miles! Surely that will shave off some time even with the other low speed restrictions?
Definitely. If they upgrade a bunch of the 100-125 mph sections to 125-135 mph, you could probably see a total reduction time of about 30-45 min for a full line run between BOS and WAS, depending on the stopping pattern.
 #1574770  by electricron
 
Fan Railer wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:42 am
daybeers wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:52 am That's great news! How many miles would that be at/near 160?
Significantly more than is now at 150. My calculations are below:
Current 150 Territory:
[17.4] MP 154.3 to MP 171.7 (Kingston to Davisville)
[5.6] MP 174.5 to MP 180.1 (TF Green area)
[10.5] MP 194.5 to MP 205 (Attleboro to Mansfield)

Total: 33.5 miles

Future 150/160 Territory (inclusive of above):
[22.9] MP 32.8 to MP 55.7 (COUNTY to HAM)
[21.3] MP 29.7 to MP 51.0 (RAGAN to BACON)
[6.3] MP 51.0 to MP 57.3 (BACON to PRINCE)*
[13.5] MP 205.0 to MP 218.5 (Mansfield to RTE 128)*

*Currently 130 mph (non-curve restriction), may only upgrade to 145 mph or 150 mph.

Total (inclusive of current 150 territory): 97.5 miles (77.7 miles without * territories)
Your math had three answers,
33.5 miles now
77.7 miles without * territories
97.5 miles with * territories.
* territories defined as 130 mph now, potentially 145 or 150 mph in the future (or just a "maybe")
The entire NEC from Boston to DC is 457 miles.
33.5 miles / 457 miles x 100 = 7.33%
77.7 miles ' 457 miles x 100 = 17%
97.5 miles / 457 miles x 100 = 21.33%

There is either a 10% or 14% increase in overall very fast tracks with maximum speeds for the NEC with the work in progress now.

So how much faster would the trip between Boston and DC take? Today it takes around 6 hours and 30 minutes for an existing Acela train to travel those 457 miles with 33.5 miles being extremely fast, per Wiki. That's 390 minutes. That's the time per the Amtrak schedules, which do not have to reflect the real time to travel that distance. At best, a 10% decrease in time because there are 10% more faster tracks would save 39 minutes, a 14% decrease in times because there are 14% more faster tracks would save 54 minutes. That's assuming the ratio between faster tracks is directly proportional to train speeds, which it is not. So 30 to 45 minutes may or may not be actual time savings.

To get better data on time savings, you would have to know the train speeds for every mile of those 457 miles of track, or actually use a stop watch to time what the train requires to go that far.
  • 1
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17
  • 18
  • 19
  • 21