JohnFromJersey wrote: Will we start seeing D&D trains before or after this ROW work is complete?Not until there is a filing with the STB, and then its approved.
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NJ announces 2021 rail construction grants
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According to the grant, the project requires NO federal, state, or local permits. Somewhere on this site, relating to C&D (parent corporation) taking over local traffic from NS and conrail in the Phillipsburg area, a transfer of usage rights agreed to by all parties does not require STB ok. If it were new trackage it would. Pleas don't make me find it.
As far as seeing D&D equipment on this trackage, I expect not, until at least the track work on the FIT connecting to the southern is complete.
As far as seeing D&D equipment on this trackage, I expect not, until at least the track work on the FIT connecting to the southern is complete.
CharlieL wrote:According to the grant, the project requires NO federal, state, or local permits. Somewhere on this site, relating to C&D (parent corporation) taking over local traffic from NS and conrail in the Phillipsburg area, a transfer of usage rights agreed to by all parties does not require STB ok. If it were new trackage it would. Pleas don't make me find it.Filing with the STB is not a permit for construction like this grant is stating that not are needed. Grade crossing repair is not part of phase one or two, the grant merely mentions what crossings go thru the "zone" and who's railroad it is. Grade Crossings are the responsibility of the road owner, usually NJDOT but sometimes the county. Here is the link for the STB filing that C&D made at the end of 2018 for the trackage in Phillipsburg that you just told me they didn't . https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 246850.pdf
As far as seeing D&D equipment on this trackage, I expect not, until at least the track work on the FIT connecting to the southern is complete.
The filing would be a " Notice of exemption" since all parties agree. Anytime there is a change in the common carrier obligation, there has to be a filing notice to the STB.
There should be some new news later this year.
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I’m with CR7876. Even if there is a prior agreement I don’t think the STB would be okay with some other railroad taking over anything without filing with them first. I’d imagine no one is exempted from the process.
I wouldn’t know anything about permits retaining to track work and whatnot. My only guess is doing it in NJ means more time doing paperwork than actually fixing tracks.
I wouldn’t know anything about permits retaining to track work and whatnot. My only guess is doing it in NJ means more time doing paperwork than actually fixing tracks.
So, a notice of exemption is needed, but I will take 25% on that as approval is apparently not required, only the absence of a denial.
And yes, the owner of the road is responsible, but the request to do so comes from either conrail or NJT (according to the grant request). Apparently some or all of the requests have been issued, note Howell twp's work on Howell rd in conjunction with repaving work.
And yes, the owner of the road is responsible, but the request to do so comes from either conrail or NJT (according to the grant request). Apparently some or all of the requests have been issued, note Howell twp's work on Howell rd in conjunction with repaving work.
Even if there is a prior agreement I don’t think the STB would be okay with some other railroad taking over anything without filing with them first.Bracdude,
I am not privy to the agreement between CSAO and C&D/D&D, but since we can see from the grant that CSAO started this process in 2017, maybe this is not a transfer of operation and instead a hiring of a subcontractor by CSAO. Hence no need to file with STB.
Harry
@R&DB Truthfully Conrail has been looking for a buyer since SA35 was abolished, and that was way back in 2002-2003. My friend caught that train. It had NS 2943 (Spirit of Conrail) on it.
The document does indeed say that Conrail identified C&D as a “Prospective Leaser” of the lines in question, and it does look like C&D wants to take over once all this work is finished.
I also thought at first that the grant was just to connect Farmingdale to Freehold and that Conrail would continue to run the lines and that eventually NJSL would do their thing, although I’m not certain If this is the case now.
There’s also something else I’ve been wondering about.
Using the internet archive website I went back and looked through the C&D website. In 2017, the website had a description stating that C&D was a “handling line partner for Norfolk Southern” (?????????????) and now that description isn’t there. I’ve wondered if that has anything to do with all this seeing as how NS is one Conrails parent companies right now...
The document does indeed say that Conrail identified C&D as a “Prospective Leaser” of the lines in question, and it does look like C&D wants to take over once all this work is finished.
I also thought at first that the grant was just to connect Farmingdale to Freehold and that Conrail would continue to run the lines and that eventually NJSL would do their thing, although I’m not certain If this is the case now.
There’s also something else I’ve been wondering about.
Using the internet archive website I went back and looked through the C&D website. In 2017, the website had a description stating that C&D was a “handling line partner for Norfolk Southern” (?????????????) and now that description isn’t there. I’ve wondered if that has anything to do with all this seeing as how NS is one Conrails parent companies right now...
Bracdude, sometime in 2018 C&D took over some of NS' and conrail's work in North Jersey, see the link CR7876 embedded above.
Meanwhile, work continues at Howell Rd, with grading work and placement of 3" stone this morning between the end of the rails and the curbing installed last week.
Since D&D can't take over operations on the Freehold and the Southern until the work is completed, (NJT not likely to grant them access via NJCL), a filing of exemption notice at this time is apparently not required. Work will proceed under the grant request, and after the Freehold - Southern connection is complete and perhaps before phase 2 is complete we will probably see the notice of exemption and a quick takeover by D&D.
Meanwhile, work continues at Howell Rd, with grading work and placement of 3" stone this morning between the end of the rails and the curbing installed last week.
Since D&D can't take over operations on the Freehold and the Southern until the work is completed, (NJT not likely to grant them access via NJCL), a filing of exemption notice at this time is apparently not required. Work will proceed under the grant request, and after the Freehold - Southern connection is complete and perhaps before phase 2 is complete we will probably see the notice of exemption and a quick takeover by D&D.
@CharlieL I am aware of C&D operations and what they took over from NS and Morristown and Erie. I’ve been heavily researching the company ever since this grant thing was announced earlier this year.
Was not aware that some form of work is going on at Howell Rd. Where is that? I’m going out to see SA31 later and the train usually stops outside for a break, so I’ll have time to go see what’s going today.
Was not aware that some form of work is going on at Howell Rd. Where is that? I’m going out to see SA31 later and the train usually stops outside for a break, so I’ll have time to go see what’s going today.
N 40.23252 W 74.23423. Howell rd runs between Adelphia (rte 524) and Jerseyville (Rte 33). Tracks are approx. 100 yds south of rte 33 bypass.
I may be mistaken but I believe the actual crossing repair is the responsibility of the State as they own the RoW and tracks. The State allowed the crossings to have the rail removed or paved over. Crossing protection is the responsibility of the railroad. In this case either CSAO or D&D. The Howell Rd paving work on the approaches is Howell's. Brush clearance along the RoW is most likely being done under the grant.
So the fact that there is work being done at Howell Rd should be buffered as to who owns that particular piece of property. The State's RoW is only about 40' wide.
So the fact that there is work being done at Howell Rd should be buffered as to who owns that particular piece of property. The State's RoW is only about 40' wide.
Last edited by R&DB on Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Harry
"The State's ROW is only about 40 wide."
And remember that the Main track isn't always in the center of the ROW. There was lots of passing's and siding's that allowed for the main to move from one side to the other over the the route. If you find a good imaging from above you can clearly see what I'm talking about. I'm no expert but I can clearly see the section between Freehold and Farmingdale to be off center in several spots. There also must have been agreements of use of the right away for portions of drivways?
And remember that the Main track isn't always in the center of the ROW. There was lots of passing's and siding's that allowed for the main to move from one side to the other over the the route. If you find a good imaging from above you can clearly see what I'm talking about. I'm no expert but I can clearly see the section between Freehold and Farmingdale to be off center in several spots. There also must have been agreements of use of the right away for portions of drivways?
There also must have been agreements of use of the right away for portions of drivways?Tanker, are you referring to Stavola on Yellowbrook Rd? That one existed before the line went OOS.
Does anyone know when the last time a train actually moved between Freehold and Farmingdale in either direction?
Harry
R&DB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:56 pmNot sure. The line was in decent shape when Gold's Lumber in Farmingdale was still around, but it was served by SOUS trains, and not FIT ones. I'm going to assume it was used for railcar storage and instances where they needed to send a backup locomotive to either line, I'm not sure. It was fairly recent (last 10-15 years) where they paved over the crossings between Freehold and Farmingdale. There's a chance it might've been seldom used since the Penn Central days.There also must have been agreements of use of the right away for portions of drivways?Tanker, are you referring to Stavola on Yellowbrook Rd? That one existed before the line went OOS.
Does anyone know when the last time a train actually moved between Freehold and Farmingdale in either direction?
Also, does anyone know how many phases we can expect D&D to do to this line? I wonder if there will ever be a point that they will try to upgrade the whole line up to Class 2 or 3 status so trains can go faster through busy crossings, something that could honestly potentially revive hopes of any MOM usage too...
Last edited by JohnFromJersey on Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
R&DB wrote: Does anyone know when the last time a train actually moved between Freehold and Farmingdale in either direction?1989. There was a high and wide move from Browns to Lakehurst via the Freehold.
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