Septa Budget spending (New Trolleys and new MFL cars)

SEPTA proposes $618 million capital budget for FY 2022.

I don't know how that compares to other transit networks. Can anyone provide what other agencies spend?

The keys coming out of the budget is the trolley modernize program and the extension to KOP.

Other notes
$97.3 million to begin to replace around 200 cars on the Market-Frankford Line by 2033. They are about 25 years old and require “extensive overhaul” and creative work by the mechanics in SEPTA’s shops to keep them going, said Robert Lund, deputy general manager of SEPTA for operations. “It’s just like an old used car — every year it’s more expensive to keep them reliable and safe,” Lund said. “It’s the same concept here. We don’t want to be forced to start pulling vehicles out of service; we won’t run them if we don’t feel they’re safe.”

$25 million for bus route infrastructure over 12 years, including new shelters, benches, heating, and other amenities. SEPTA’s plans rely on delicate negotiations with lawmakers in Harrisburg to come up with a stable transit funding stream by fiscal year 2023, when the agency will no longer be receiving $450 million annually from the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Around SEPTA and Gov. Tom Wolf’s office, this is known as the “fiscal cliff.”



https://www.inquirer.com/transportation ... 10426.html
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-propose ... al-budget/

They really seem stuck on the KOP extension. The trolleys seem very important to me, but the KOP extension doesn’t seem like even the next highest priority on the transit side.

Is KOP still going to be as much a hotspot for jobs, post covid?

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:41 pmIs KOP still going to be as much a hotspot for jobs, post covid?

I would say yes. Connection to the KOP mall and the business districts will grow that line. KOP is growing still so I can see that as a source of good transit users.

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:41 pmIs KOP still going to be as much a hotspot for jobs, post covid?

I would say yes. Connection to the KOP mall and the business districts will grow that line. KOP is growing still so I can see that as a source of good transit users.

I don’t disagree. I am curious if it is a better use of money than extending to the Navy Yard for example.

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:41 pmIs KOP still going to be as much a hotspot for jobs, post covid?

I would say yes. Connection to the KOP mall and the business districts will grow that line. KOP is growing still so I can see that as a source of good transit users.

I completely agree. I do Uber Eats deliveries as a side gig - I like to drive around and listen to music, so I might as well get paid for it. Every time I visited the mall for a delivery pickup, it was as crowded as ever, even the record store by the food court (seriously - check out The Rock Shop. You’ll love it). It will continue to be a destination, so it will continue to need transportation for the employees who support that destination. SEPTA really missed the opportunity to route the expansion to serve all the new development by the Wegman’s - it is seriously growing like a boomtown. It’s 1.5 miles walking from that town center to the Mall Boulevard station, which would actually be the closest.

rcthompson04 wrote:I am curious if it is a better use of money than extending to the Navy Yard for example.

It probably is a much better use of money than the Navy Yard. Despite how it misses out on the Town Center development, KOP has a greater chance of being active outside of rush hour than a Navy Yard extension. Not only is KOP a destination, AFAIK, there isn’t nearly as much residential property in the Navy Yard as there is in KOP.

There is residential development coming to the Navy Yard. Plus its a good sized employment center. So yeah BSL to the navy yard needs to happen soon.

Who can Septa buy from to replace the MFL cars?

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:41 pm Is KOP still going to be as much a hotspot for jobs, post covid?

As someone who’s lived in the area for years, I agree with Mike and others. K of P somehow has managed to avoid devolving into Just Another Abandoned Mall featured on YouTube. For both better and worse it’s turned into a destination in itself. People are continuing to buy housing even with high six- and some seven-digit prices. Businesses are moving in next to The Village* and along First Avenue; the latter’s being upgraded and is likely to be rezoned for infill development in anticipation with the NHSL extension.

That said, I think it’s a serious lack not to have service along Gulph Road as well as First Avenue. There's already a lot of density on Gulph and (IMO at least) adding still more traffic lanes would be counterproductive. The real shame is that the extension has moved at such a glacial pace there was - and is - no possibility of integrating it with all of that commercial construction.
====================
* reference for anyone old enough / nerdy enough to remember the surreal spy series The Prisoner

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:11 pm Who can Septa buy from to replace the MFL cars?

I have a few ideas. Kawasaki, Alstom, maybe Bombardier. I would have put Hyundai Rotem on the list, but they moved out.

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:11 pm Who can Septa buy from to replace the MFL cars?

Is SEPTA actually planning to replace already the M4 cars - which are only 22-23 years old (1998-99)
from what I recall? Compare them to the M3 1960 Budd cars - which saw almost 40 years of service.

The Kawasaki BSL-4 cars are now 38-39 years old (1982-83) and have held up very well over the years.
They replaced BSL cars built in 1928, 1936 and 1938 which were 45, 47 and 55 years old at retirement.
The older B-1-2-3 fleet (what remained) were literally "run into the ground" by the early 1980s.

The 1980-81 vintage Kawasaki LRV cars have not only held up well over the years due to how well that they
have been maintained - they have some practical use still left in them. The trouble is that they are not ADA
compliant - modification of doorways and interiors would be costly - and with that problem it makes more
sense to purchase new cars for the trolley services.

We all agree that SEPTA has needs for rail service equipment replacement - with parts of the fleet advancing
in age...What will get priority? Will the funding be in place to pay for these future needs over time? MACTRAXX

JeffK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:28 am As someone who’s lived in the area for years [...]

Jeff: KOP or *"King of Pressure"* is one of the strongest malls in all of North America (US-Canada).
The dead malls that you mention are "weak" malls that oversaturation or competition (two main reasons) have
brought down along with the rise of on-line shopping - the pandemic in the past 14 months not withstanding.

The NHSL extension to KOP is a good move by SEPTA provided that the mall area is adequately served in a
manner that does not encounter NIMBY or other opposition (for those unaware) to the proposed routing.
This may boost ridership substantially on the NHSL - along with the thought of a future N6 car order.

Extending the BSL south to the Navy Yard - and/or to a park/ride station in National Park, NJ - is going to be
costly due to the tunnel construction that will be required. Extending bus or adding light rail (trolley) routes
to the Navy Yard area from the Sports Complex would be much less expensive to-from NRG/Pattison Station.

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:58 am

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:11 pm Who can Septa buy from to replace the MFL cars?

Is SEPTA actually planning to replace already the M4 cars - which are only 22-23 years old (1998-99)
from what I recall? Compare them to the M3 1960 Budd cars - which saw almost 40 years of service.

The Kawasaki BSL-4 cars are now 38-39 years old (1982-83) and have held up very well over the years.
They replaced BSL cars built in 1928, 1936 and 1938 which were 45, 47 and 55 years old at retirement.
The older B-1-2-3 fleet (what remained) were literally "run into the ground" by the early 1980s.

The 1980-81 vintage Kawasaki LRV cars have not only held up well over the years due to how well that they
have been maintained - they have some practical use still left in them. The trouble is that they are not ADA
compliant - modification of doorways and interiors would be costly - and with that problem it makes more
sense to purchase new cars for the trolley services.

We all agree that SEPTA has needs for rail service equipment replacement - with parts of the fleet advancing
in age...What will get priority? Will the funding be in place to pay for these future needs over time? MACTRAXX

From what I read, they would like to replace the M4 cars by 2033? They complain about how much unreliable the M4 are. Recently there was the cracking on the trucks I believe. M4 service life is expensive and I guess they would like to reduce that cost.