CR on the Southern Secondary

@Tanker1497 Clayton bought the line in 1985 or so and trains ran on it until at least 1988. I’ve been told the last train was in 1992 and that they stopped running because trains kept derailing in one spot. Sounds like all the fun of a train set lol.

I think if Clayton wanted nothing to do with the line they would have gotten rid of it after the last train. It has been mentioned on here that they’ve been paying taxes on the line even though it’s currently inactive. Plus, Seashore Lines has been wanting to get this line open for quite some time now so they can get some more income. I doubt they will let the track sit there and be a desolate line so Clayton can play a joke.

Yes, some of us are "waay out there" from time to time, including me. But that's a part of what makes this site enjoyable, along with a shared love of railroading. Speculation is fun.

It's only natural seeing as how the southern has been more or less going downhill for some time, with Woodhaven being about the only thing keeping it going, and now seeing some apparently incipient activity.

#1565320 by Bracdude181
Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:13 pm
@Tanker1497 Clayton bought the line in 1985 or so and trains ran on it until at least 1988. I’ve been told the last train was in 1992 and that they stopped running because trains kept derailing in one spot. Sounds like all the fun of a train set lol.

I lived on Maxim Rd from 1982 -1992 a little over 1/4 mile west of the crossing. Saw and heard those trains all the time. They continued after '88, but not as numerous. The peak was around '87-'88 when sometimes there would 3 in one night.
I don't know the date of the last train, but I saw one in (probably) June '92. We moved in July of that year. All of the ones I saw were Conrail GPs or SDs.

R&DB wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:51 pm

#1565320 by Bracdude181
Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:13 pm
@Tanker1497 Clayton bought the line in 1985 or so and trains ran on it until at least 1988. I’ve been told the last train was in 1992 and that they stopped running because trains kept derailing in one spot. Sounds like all the fun of a train set lol.

I lived on Maxim Rd from 1982 -1992a little over 1/4 mile west of the crossing. Saw and heard those trains all the time. They continued after '88, but not as numerous. The peak was around '87-'88 when sometimes there would 3 in one night.
I don't know the date of the last train, but I saw one in (probably) June '92. We moved in July of that year. All of the ones I saw were Conrail GPs or SDs.

how many cars would the trains typically have?

@ John from Jersey;
40 - 60 cars. I never counted, but that would be my estimate.

@R&DB and JohnFromJersey The sand pit is capable of supplying 61 loaded cars a day. Supposedly there is still 30 years worth of sand in that place, which could keep the trains running for a long time.

However, we are most likely going to see 30 cars per trip, with two trains a week once they get running. Where the sand is going, I’m not certain. Signs point to the sand being used by Amtrak for future projects, but I could be wrong.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:02 am @R&DB and JohnFromJersey The sand pit is capable of supplying 61 loaded cars a day. Supposedly there is still 30 years worth of sand in that place, which could keep the trains running for a long time.

However, we are most likely going to see 30 cars per trip, with two trains a week once they get running. Where the sand is going, I’m not certain. Signs point to the sand being used by Amtrak for future projects, but I could be wrong.

Where else would they go? And where did they go back in the late 80's/early 90's?

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 pm

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:02 am @R&DB and JohnFromJersey The sand pit is capable of supplying 61 loaded cars a day. Supposedly there is still 30 years worth of sand in that place, which could keep the trains running for a long time.

However, we are most likely going to see 30 cars per trip, with two trains a week once they get running. Where the sand is going, I’m not certain. Signs point to the sand being used by Amtrak for future projects, but I could be wrong.

Where else would they go? And where did they go back in the late 80's/early 90's?

My guesses:
1> Portal Bridge Project (NJT) Late 2021
2> Gateway 2 new North River Tunnel project (Amtrak)
3> Rebuild existing North River tunnels (Amtrak)
80s - 90s various Meadowlands projects
The controlling variable is do you need so much concrete that it is cost efficient to bring the materials in by train?

@R&DB The new bridge and tunnels will need huge amounts of concrete in their construction. So much so that the sand cars might go directly to site and mixed with concrete there. That’s the only way they could do it, because if it’s mixed off site it could potentially harden before it’s poured and they’d have to start over. There’s been several instances of that in bridge construction over the past few years.

@Bracdude181 - That is correct. For large scale civil works that require large amounts of concrete (bridges, tunnels, damns, new highways, etc), it is cheaper and more flexible to set up a concrete plant right at/or very close by to the project site. If I recall properly, when rebuilding the Tappan Zee bridge, they put the concrete plant on a barge. I never observed how they ferried the materials over (probably used another barge).

@CJPat That might be the bridge my friend mentioned. I’m not entirely sure though.

Since Amtrak has been lobbying for more money to put towards the Northeast Corridor, and with many upgrades planned or already being worked on, I’m wondering if they can set up some sort of long term contract to get sand from Clayton by rail. Supposedly there’s still 30 years worth of sand at the Woodmansie pit, so that can keep trains going for quite a while under certain circumstances.

I would think that Clayton is certainly keeping an eye on those kind of opportunities. The issue comes from the fact that this would most likely involve government contracting. All the past big projects typically have been government related, whether Federal , State or lower.

As anyone on this Board who have experience with government contracts knows that:
1. They are Highly competitive - Lowest price wins which typically means the Winning Bidder forgot to include something. Supply contracts can be so competitive, they become brutal. This is where change orders can seem outrageous as different trade companies and supply companies try to make up for losses in the original bidding.
2. Every individual project means a whole new price quote. A contractor can make certain wholesale arrangements with particular vendors that could be used to extend pricing over several projects, but due to the competitiveness, most contractors keep going back to the vendors on each project trying to get them to lower their prices further. In similar fashion, vendors offer certain discounts on products based on volumes purchased. But the contractor is still going to compete similar supply houses against each other trying to get that "great price".
3. For the purpose of this discussion, we will not explore behind the curtains.

Bottom line, Clayton is in competition with numerous sand pits. For bulk projects, rail is a great advantage. Let's hope Clayton gets the opportunity to participate in any possible upcoming contracts. I just don't think they would necessarily get a long term supply contract because it will all be based on the winning General Contractor or Construction Management Company who may differ project to project.

@CJPat That was very well written! So seem to know your stuff when it comes to government projects.

Unfortunately, this fantasy that construction projects in the NYC metro area will use so much sand it will need to be brought in by rail is still being bandied about. It was put forward, originally, by a shyster looking to get around certain environmental regulations by having himself declared a railroad. The idea was to purchase and claim to operate a disused line, and based upon that, use the exemption from local regulation that railroads have. This fantasy that sand would need to be shipped by rail was included in a failed attempt to purchase a rail line from a proposed seller not interested in selling....

The simple fact is that there is no need for such a significant volume of materials for concrete as proposed. One carload of sand would have enough sand for at least 10 truckloads of concrete. Even were we to assume there could be sand shipped by rail for these projects (why not the aggregate which is needed in similar quantities and has the advantage of being shipped from farther away making rail more economical) where would it be sent to? There are few, if any, railside locations available for a batch plant.

Sorry to inject reality into the discussion, but don't hold your breath waiting for trains of sand. It was simply a lie, put forth by a liar, without any basis in reality. Oh well...

@NS1, -This is a bit lengthy, but bear with me.
We can definitely appreciate your perspective, especially since the "railwatch for sand trains" has been going on since 2006, but I would have to differ with you on one thing. We are well familiar with the"shyster" you reference. He tried to interact in Somerville as well as out in Jersey City area and I believe his biggest play was outside of Baltimore. But he is not involved here.

Unfortunately, I fear you err in regards to the Clayton sand pit in Woodmansie. The sand pit itself and the 13 miles of track have been owned by the Clayton corporation since sometime in the early 1980's after the Jersey Central was absorbed by Conrail and the NJDOT took ownership of the entire ROW south of Lakehurst. Clayton purchased the ROW from NJDOT and ran his own trains utilizing Ashland Rwy until track conditions go so bad, it became too costly to operate. Clayton continued to pay the taxes on the ROW, although overgrown at that time until 2006 when Clayton had the line cleared (presumably in advance of looking for contracts for the intended construction of the new train tunnels under the hudson -"Tunnel to Nowhere" or The Macy's Basement Line. The project never came to fruition at that time (as a taxpayer, it was a very bad deal for NJ). At last look, NJ Seashore lines holds the contract to be the actual railway operator to transfer the sand cars to Lakehurst for conrail to take north. The "Shyster" has never been involved in any of this. As you said, his M.O. was to take abandoned ROWs and file to be recognized as an Operating Railroad. Never happened here.

It does appear that Amtrak indeed desires to conduct several projects (new tunnels, new Portal Bridge, and a few others). These projects may not show up for another 4+years, but there is potential for Clayton with this.

You are probably also very correct when you say "One carload of sand would have enough sand for at least 10 truckloads of concrete". As you are probably aware, a concrete truck hauls about 10 cy of concrete. 10 trucks would be 100 cy. 100 cy is paltry in these type of projects. Concrete would typically be measured in thousands of cy. And yes, like you said, they would also need the aggregate to go with it along with the concrete powder (would probably be a different vendor).

As far as locations for batch plants, Nj doesn't lack empty properties in the vicinity of the Hudson or Passaic Rivers where factories once stood, many of them having had rail access at one time. Not usually too hard to rent a property and set up a batch plant and reinstall a siding for unloading.

As far as when would this happen, you are again correct to be dubious as to occuring in the immediate near future. And as I pointed out in another post, Clayton would have to be contracted to be a sand provider, meaning his price and service would have to be lower than other sand vendors in a competitive bid.