CR on the Southern Secondary

@CR7876 Maybe that’s for the best. Probably because there’s a lot of ways they can go about it. We might go crazy trying to find the most likely option!

Since contracts for the bridge are to be bid this spring and let in the fall, I expect no work on the bridge will be accomplished before spring '22 except for maybe survey and the all important first-shovel photo op late in the year. We may see some work such as crossing signals / gates at Whitesville rd and maybe some clearing of ROW between Lakewood and Lakehurst this year but I wouldn't bet on it.

Since construction contracts will not be let until later this year, is it a certainty Clayton "has the contract" for the sand? They are the most likely as far as I can see, but certain?

And so much fill / grading will be needed for the increased elevation of the new bridge I don't see much concrete being poured before '23. I hate to be a little bit of a wet blanket, esp since I really want this to happen and am running out of time, but it is what it is.

Meanwhile, there will be a significant amount of concrete needed for the Raritan river bridge.

I also would love to see more trains on the Southern Secondary.
BUT a significant amount of sand was needed for the Goethals Bridges (2013-2018), yea there are two now as well as for the replacement for the Victory bridge (2002-2005) (Rt 9 over the Raritan). I have no idea where that sand came from but it was NOT by rail up the Southern Secondary. WHY are we assuming that ANY of these future projects will be using Clayton sand transported by rail?

Supposedly, the Gateway Project was the reason why Clayton wanted to reopen the line at line from what I hear. This could explain why work on the line has been all over the place, as there wasn’t really a big push for Gateway until recent years.

Even if this isn’t the case, they will probably find customers. Claytons website advertises that their sand meets requirements to be used in construction projects for surrounding states, and that it can be made for specific projects.

Amtrak wants to make huge improvements to the NEC. Bridges, tunnels, station upgrades, and eventually high speed rail if they ever get that far or get the money for it. Would be nice if they get sand by rail from Clayton for the long term. That could keep trains rolling for many years depending on the circumstances.

One more thing, Conrail needs to do more than just fix Whitesville Rd. There’s a washout south of there, many ties are still rotten, and the bridge under Route 70 was never properly repaired after an incident where SA91 parked NS 5311 on it and broke it.

Guys, unloading will be done at a concrete mixing facility. The sand needs to be mixed with other aggregate, water and Portland cement to be concrete. None of this is contracted as yet, so speculating on where and when is a wait and see exercise. Best guess is work on the Southern Secondary won't begin before Fall 2021. Conrail will not spend the money until they have to. My question is how much will they improve the line, Class 2? Class 3? Will NJT upgrade the Coast Line to allow heavier cars?

@R&DB

NJT has no plans to upgrade the Coast Line for heavier freight cars. The current limit is 263,000 pounds. Unless Conrail reopens Farmingdale to Freehold, we won’t see heavier cars down here. Transit won’t spend the money to upgrade their bridges for freight. In fact, it’s one of the reasons why NJ Transit wants Conrail off the Coast Line.

You are correct that Conrail will probably wait until the last second to start working on Lakehurst to Lakewood. To what standard they will upgrade is anyone’s guess. Aside from the washout near Whitesville Rd, the damaged bridge in Lakehurst, and all of the rotten ties the line isn’t too bad. It shouldn’t be a huge problem both work and moneywise to bring the line up to Class 2, but Conrail will likely cheap out. We will have to wait and see.

For Seashore Lines, all that’s needed is to finish two railroad crossings, finish any track work, and clear out some room in Woodmansie so Clayton can bring their equipment to the cars and load them. Once that’s done it’s all systems go after Conrail does their part.

I’ve got a good feeling we will see some trains soon. Hard to say exactly when, maybe between June and August.

1 - Almost positive Clayton can't load on the main. (Just my opinion, but I have been in the plant and I know where the pits are in relation to the main)
2 - There was zero push for Gateway under the Trump administration. However, Biden is rail friendly.
3 - The bridge under Rt.70 was rebuilt by Conrail just a few years ago.
4 - "They will probably find customers" No customers found to date after rebuilding Lakehurst-Woodmansie several years ago, but hope springs eternal.
5 - No need to rebuild the Southern above Class 1 (10 mph for freight; Class 2 is 25 mph for freight), no way to justify the cost at this point.
6- Projected unloading facility will be massive...as mentioned, sand doesn't turn into concrete overnight.
7 - Yes, went over the new Goethals bridge last week and the build was very impressive even without a sand train.

In my honest opinion,
Chris

@RailsEast The bridge was repaired, but not properly.

Around 2009 I believe. SA91 brought NS 5311 and a small train down to Lakehurst. (It was still blue at the time) Before they left, they parked it on the bridge. The bridge couldn’t take the strain and the ends of the deck were permanently bent downwards while the center bowed upwards. The supports underneath were also cracked.

In 2014 Conrail came in and “fixed” the bridge. They took the deck, ties, and rails off and put a new deck and ties in without addressing the decaying supports underneath, and it hasn’t gotten better with time.

They didn’t do the deck right either. Part of the metal walkway is gone on one side now.

Meanwhile the other two bridges north of Route 70 were rebuilt correctly, and even had extra supporting wood put in.

The best part? The supports on the adjacent abandoned bridge are thicker and in better shape

Edit: Here’s a picture of 5311 on the bridge taken by my friend who witnessed it that day. I found it while we dug through some SD cards he had.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/56466LkQwMA5S8d99

I did not imply that putting signals at Whitesville rd and brushcutting were the only things needed to get the Lakehurst stretch opened again. Indeed other than the rails and the general grading, everything else (ties, ballast, etc) will be required. My point was we will be seeing little or no work in the immediate future. Please read carefully what I say.

And NY&LB, good point about the sand used on other projects. It just seems a natural that the amount of sand needed and the location where it's needed seem to make Clayton and the southern secondary a good choice. Doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

RailsEast wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:48 pm ...
6- Projected unloading facility will be massive...as mentioned, sand doesn't turn into concrete overnight.

I can't see Amtrak (or NJT) allowing any sand trains on the NEC except maybe late at night. And no new turnouts etc under any conditions, so that means no sand trains on the NEC to the bridge site ( though maybe using other tracks to some concrete facility.)

RailsEast wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:48 pm 7 - Yes, went over the new Goethals bridge last week and the build was very impressive even without a sand train.
In my honest opinion,
Chris

As an aside, in the fall my wife and I parked in southern Bayonne, rode our bikes up (slowly!) and over the new Bayonne bridge to Staten Island (there is a very wide and barrier-protected pedestrian/bikeway), cut across Staten Island for a couple of miles (a bit tricky by bike but do-able) and then went up the new Goethels bridge (another good pedestrian/bikeway), and back. Great views on both of them. Saw remains of the old CNJ main, went past the Howland Hook RR transfer yard (trash, containers) on Staten Island, looked down on AK bridge, and lots of other industrial and marine infrastructure. HIghly recommended (by bike or by foot). The Bayonne bridge was very popular with local walkers, much less so on the Goethels bridge because it had no housing nearby.

Sounds like a bike ride I will take in the spring, thanks!
The only shipping method cheaper than rail is ship/barge, and that's likely how cement and fill got to the prior mentioned megaprojects.

Here’s some photos from Lakehurst today. Notice the milepost numbers spray painted on the old signal support and the bridge. There’s also markings on the track and some trees. I assume this is for that pipeline they wanna build.

Also included are some of the new concrete footers for the new crossing at Union Ave.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ypcT9cXHZBcV1nsb6

Going off topic... Ccutler (and others): The paths are on the east side of the Bayonne bridge and the north side of the North span of the Goethels bridge. Look at Google maps satellite close up to see... To cross Staten Island, we rode out along Richmond Terrace and then Western Ave to the Goethels bridge. Some interesting sights in the Kill van Kull next to Richmond Terrace (tugboats in small shipyard...) and Howland Hook yard on Western Ave. Not much traffic on Sunday and not high speed but Richmond Terrace was very narrow and the few trucks and buses were not slowing down. Stuck to the narrow sidewalk where we could. Came back via Gulf Ave (wide bike lane, very little traffic) and then turned left at National Grid onto the less interesting Forest Ave (sidewalk to ride on for all but a few yards, although we had to switch sides once). Then from South Ave you could cut through quiet residential streets back to the Bayonne Bridge. Stay away from Goethels Rd North (fast cars, no shoulder or sidewalk or bike lane near the bridge). After, there is a nice park to hang out in, in Bayonne near the water just east of the Bayonne Br, all along 1st St. We just parked on the street (JFK Blvd). End of digression.

ccutler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:35 pm Sounds like a bike ride I will take in the spring, thanks!

NY&LB wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:51 pm I also would love to see more trains on the Southern Secondary.
BUT a significant amount of sand was needed for the Goethals Bridges (2013-2018), yea there are two now as well as for the replacement for the Victory bridge (2002-2005) (Rt 9 over the Raritan). I have no idea where that sand came from but it was NOT by rail up the Southern Secondary. WHY are we assuming that ANY of these future projects will be using Clayton sand transported by rail?

Just a correction, Victory Bridge is the Rt 35 Bridge over the Raritan. Route 9 Bridge was being rebuilt or improved in 1999-2002. Also the Garden State Parkway was widening in 2005-2009

I don't know much about the sand but i did hear something that the Port Authority maybe replacing the OuterBridge Crossing (Rt 440)

Since we’ve been talking about bridges and other projects...

Maybe Clayton could look into getting the contracts to supply larger regional construction projects with sand and have it delivered by rail? Gateway isn’t the only thing the politicians want built, and infrastructure projects are something the Biden administration really wants to push.

Clayton can load up 61 hopper cars a day. If they can provide that much sand at a competitive price they could make a huge amount of money if they find customers. Would keep Seashore Lines and Conrail busy too with that much traffic...