CSX Acquisition of Pan Am Railways

Red Wing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:05 pm Okay with all this port talk. What are the ports that CSX could have rail access too? Boston, Portsmouth, Portland. Are there more?

Bucksport. There’s a dock and petroleum tankers still call there

roberttosh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:12 pm It will certainly be interesting to see how that pans out, but in my opinion they're being extremely optimistic in that the 2 Halifax terminals, which have been around forever, barley do 600K TEU's combined while Saint J currently hovers around 100K TEU's.

Part of the numbers will also come from cannibalizing Montreal. The newer big ships won’t call there bc they can’t fit

Interesting, the comment about Bucksport. We all forget about Bucksport but it does have the facilities to receive petro related products. The only problem is that the branch down from Bangor is a mess and would have to be a major project to get it into shape for any kind of traffic. It is an interesting thought and well worth thinking about itg.

Bucksport can't handle anything that can't be handled from Portland, which already has several moorings for ship-tank-rail transfers of refined products. However (and correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't think any of the SoPo terminals are capable of EXPORTING refined product.

I'd also be interested to see if Portland is going to reawaken as a crude port. Portland Pipeline Co. has been doing a substantial amount of work on their facilities in South Portland, and they recently saw their first inbound crude shipment in over 2 years. Also worth nothing that PPL has pipe running directly underneath Rigby

fromway wrote:The only problem is that the branch down from Bangor is a mess and would have to be a major project to get it into shape for any kind of traffic. It is an interesting thought and well worth thinking about itg.

I think this is sort of the question about Saint John as well. To make the capital investment to bring Keag up to par for that sort of traffic, they’d need A LOT of containers at this point. Bridges, roadbed and track need not just work but a total rebuild. My guess is that sure CSX will take what they can from the MNR and EMRY, and that might even include some maritime traffic that’s already on a ship in Saint John. But I doubt CSX is going to invest to compete with CP and CN moving stuff from Saint John to Chicago.

And this falls in the “railfan fantasy” category perhaps. But Brownville Jct. - NMJ could likely today handle double-stacks. And even though Pan Am is today dumping ties amidst a Winter Storm Watch back home in Lincoln, ME (while I escape for work) hoping the spring thaw with no roadbed work is someone else’s problem still won’t solve that! Talk about port fluidity - what if NBSR shuttled double stacks to Brownville Jct. and traffic to the Midwest US and Canada went via the Moosehead on CP and traffic to the US Southeast went to NMJ and then CSX. Again.... fully admit “railfan fantasy”

Cosakita18 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:30 pm Bucksport can't handle anything that can't be handled from Portland, which already has several moorings for ship-tank-rail transfers of refined products. However (and correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't think any of the SoPo terminals are capable of EXPORTING refined product.

I'd also be interested to see if Portland is going to reawaken as a crude port. Portland Pipeline Co. has been doing a substantial amount of work on their facilities in South Portland, and they recently saw their first inbound crude shipment in over 2 years. Also worth nothing that PPL has pipe running directly underneath Rigby

Very curious where any crude imported at Portland goes. Puzzling. Am not aware of any refinery in the area. Pipelined to someplace far off?
Tankers of refined product currently call in Chelsea creek, Portland, searsport and bucksport. Am not sure about Portsmouth for that

F74265A wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:40 pm Very curious where any crude imported at Portland goes. Puzzling. Am not aware of any refinery in the area. Pipelined to someplace far off?
Tankers of refined product currently call in Chelsea creek, Portland, searsport and bucksport. Am not sure about Portsmouth for that

Crude is (or has been) piped to refineries in Montreal. The pipeline has been more or less mothballed since 2015 now that those refineries get all their crude from Alberta.

Currently Portland, Portsmouth and Bucksport only handle inbound refined product. The lions share of Irving's short-sea deliveries go through Boston and Portland. Portland in particular used to see a lot of transatlantic imports of refined product, but that's nearly vanished in recent years because of new domestic oil and gas production.

As far as why St John would be preferred over Montreal or Quebec City (in reference to Cowford's question posted at 3:47 this afternoon): Any ship accessing these two ports has to go up the St Lawrence Seaway... meaning that once that ship is done, it needs to go all the way back out the Seaway and around the peninsula that contains Maine and New Brunswick (is there a name for it???) before being able to continue down the East Coast of the US. Which is to say: To a ship whose main ports of call are down the East Coast of the US, Montreal and QC are very much out of the way. By comparison, it should be relatively easy to convince a ship headed from Europe that's going down the East Coast to make a quick stop in St John - you're passing it anyway!

Switching gears here - let's say CSX wanted to run double stacks via Worcester and up into Maine - to Waterville, say. How far could they get? How much work would need to be done (clearance-wise) to make that possible?

One advantage that CSX would have over NS in terms of double stack traffic to Maine is that CSX can handle it without needing to touch Hoosac Tunnel. The possibility of such traffic should be worth a LOT more to CSX than to NS.

Not very far. Assuming the tunnel under down town Worcester is clear (don’t know), I do not believe the bridge in Clinton where the Fitchburg secondary passes over is cleared. Pan am lists Worcester route at 19’6”. Then the route on to Portland has more obstructions, some of which are lower yet— clear only to 17 feet

Somewhere I read that there's a pretty big issue with some I-495 ramps in Lawrence that would require major work. Might be something to do with not being able to undercut at that location which would require new off-ramps. Plenty of other bridges that would need to be raised or undercut but that's the biggest issue I'm aware of. One other concern is I believe the Ayer line in Worcester goes through a tunnel and under a hospital which would be tough to redesign if they're not already cleared for Domestic DS.

Tofc- which is still around a little as I saw it last weekend on ns at front royal- could start day 1 to Waterville

mrj1981 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:15 pm One advantage that CSX would have over NS in terms of double stack traffic to Maine is that CSX can handle it without needing to touch Hoosac Tunnel. The possibility of such traffic should be worth a LOT more to CSX than to NS.

We must wonder, did Chessie really "outsmart" Topper (cats are considered quite intelligent animals, lest we forget), or did Topper take one look at this decrepit property, realizing the further East he roamed and not being dissuaded what passenger train agencies put in place, the more decrepit it became - kicked up his heels and "skedaddled".

To get to the potential traffic sources, Topper looked and saw Chessie's already FRA Class 4 B&A, then his rinky dink, clearance restricted, FRA Class 3 West of Fitchburg (and FRA Class 4 to the East compliments of a passenger train agency) PAS, reared up and said "happy trails to you, Chessie".

I like to think "they ain't dumb" @ 1200 Peachtree (I've walked by NS Hq when I had time to kill before an Atlanta Symphony concert; sure makes 500 Water look like a dump, which I have been inside), and they too have a pile of Greenbacks looking for something to do with them. For those here who prefer shiny Black engines with Topper on the nose and a combination name of real, well managed, roads on the side, over some often faded Blue with a bunch of meaningless initials on the nose and side, let's just say it was a business decision that may or may not have been correct.

A business decision that is likely correct when you look at a map and see how much further NS would be extending themselves away from their core system (unlike CSX).

Also coupled with the fact that the shareholders and bean counters likely wouldn't have looked favorable on it given all they're doing now to slash their railroad to death. I have been a longtime NSC shareholder but sold it all in the past year. I am unimpressed
with how service, employees and tradition are caving to the operating ratio. It wouldn't have happened on Moorman's watch. Let's hope they can get through the other side as CSX and CP have done and get back on track (no pun intended).

newpylong wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:05 pm A business decision that is likely correct when you look at a map and see how much further NS would be extending themselves away from their core system (unlike CSX

You hit the nail on the head. NS is already running several hundred miles over light density main lines to reach New England and not so sure they want to extend those light density routes by another 400 miles. CSX on the other hand has a major hump yard in nearby Selkirk and has significantly more traffic on the B&A than the NS has anywhere East of Buffalo or North of Harrisburg. I think CSX is looking at Pan Am as a major feeder route and as a means to further expand their dominance in the region.