Should (or could) Amtrak Contract out Certain Routes to Private Operators?

We have to be very careful to watch out for firestorms before Jan 20th that will harm Amtrak.

BandA wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:08 pm How does Amtrak determine pay rates / zones? By surveying freight railroads?

Maine cost of housing is dramatically lower than Greater Boston, perhaps 1/3. Maine income tax is higher than Massachusetts & progressive.

I would start by looking at the various contracts. For T&E and mechanical department folk, I suspect whatever their craft makes on a freight road, they make.

Now I get why the States partner with Amtrak. Amtrak subsidizes the operation. A state using Brightline will have to pay Brightline. See also METRA.

I just noticed over on the trains web site that the Rocky Mountaineer plans to start a Denver CO to Moab UT seasonal tour train. It would be interesting if they decide to operate the ski train in winter.

Alex M wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:02 pm I just noticed over on the trains web site that the Rocky Mountaineer plans to start a Denver CO to Moab UT seasonal tour train. It would be interesting if they decide to operate the ski train in winter.

The history of private luxury rail since 1985 or so has not been what you’d call successful for the long haul.

Let’s also consider Moab. Moab. Can you say Bum****, Egypt? It’s not exactly someplace easy to get to without a car.

Finally, at $1200 PP for two days, there’d better be a Michelin starred chef and classic Pullman bedding, because “class of the world” hotels cost less per night than this run.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:35 am
Let’s also consider Moab. Moab. Can you say Bum****, Egypt? It’s not exactly someplace easy to get to without a car.

I agree with you that M[iddle]O[f]A[nywhere]B[ut Salt Lake City] is not a well-known location for rail service, with the closest example being a Rio Grande/UP branch across the Colorado River. But then again, I can see why they chose the branch since it's right next to Arches National Park, a well-known tourist park in the state. Even if tourist services like this can be expensive or infrequent, I feel that these services have some potential if they can go between at least two major cities; for this case, I would suggest Denver to Salt Lake City so that passengers from both ends of the route can experience the stops in between and people could still use it for somewhat-frequent service between the two cities. This can also be accomplished by the Proposed (and private) Rocky Mountain Rail Authority which I believe is proposed to go between Denver and Grand Junction, but could achieve more ridership if it went to Salt Lake City so that it could transport people between the two largest cities in the region.

Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of business/cultural ties between SLC and DEN... and no need to expand rail service beyond what's already there with the CZ.

There are four airlines flying between the two cities and each have three flights a day, mostly to connect people at either SLC or DEN to other flights. It's a little under a 8 hour drive on the interstate at 70 mph.... and on Amtrak it's a 15 hour train option that isn't likely to get any faster.

Utah's got a decent regional rail system with Frontrunner going the 80 miles between Ogden and Provo in about two hours. It covers the bulk of the state's population.

I'm sure if there was demand for a private operator service in Colorado, it would be a corridor from Boulder to Colorado Springs via Denver. That's where the bulk of the population is, and it's only about 17 miles longer than Ogden to Provo.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:35 am The history of private luxury rail since 1985 has not been what you’d call successful for the
long haul.

Yet the Rocky Mountaineer has had its own fanbase and draws travelers across the world.

And the Canadian could be called public (or state run) luxury rail.

One other place a "ski train" might work could be Vermont. In fact the Vermonter's baggage car back
in the later 1990s was for skis in the winter, bikes in spring and summer.

Alex M wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:02 pm I just noticed over on the trains web site that the Rocky Mountaineer plans to start a Denver CO to Moab UT seasonal tour train.

Well. somebody put together a "slick coloring book" presentation:

https://www.rockymountaineer.com/train- ... -red-rocks

They even got a Salt Lake City media outlet to "drink the Kool-Aid".

https://www.ksl.com/article/50052885/al ... -to-denver

First, think '22 vice '21 for any such propodal.

Of course, what is overlooked within the propaganda is the 117 mile bus ride to get from Grand Jct to Moab. Grand Jct. Is the only reasonable and practical location at which a passenger train could be turned. Green River is 62 miles from Moab; turning a train? Hello (BTW, I've been there).

There are no rails of any kind to Moab (never been there; when I got "laid off" - riffed - by the Air Force during Jan '69 from Hill AFB, Southern Utah was on my bucket list. Well, Sam said "you're gone", and that was that).

Possibly UP is in favor of this proposal. It is a good way to get the Zephyr permanently routed on the Overland Route in the hope of "no butts on the cushions" so Amtrak will just whack it. Further, they could charge RMT a "mite bit more" than the "incremental cost" of access that reportedly is in the bilateral Amtrak/UP Operating Agreement.

disclaimer: author long UNP

Mr. Norman: as of 1965 there are rails immediately across the Colorado River from Moab (ok, a short 2-3 mile minibus ride, but directly in front of the Arches NP main entrance.) https://utahrails.net/drgw/cane-creek-branch.php

Sorry 'bout that, Mr. Stephens.

Note my present tense, but my source for the statement was a '69 Guide.

Again, allow me to note that the USAF was the only employer from which I was "whacked". My enlistment was to have ended Sep 69; since I was ready to return to School (better ways to earn a living than being on the wrong end of pow, pow, pow) and needed a Summer Session to graduate June 70, I would have asked for and surely got, a June separation. But after the Reduction In Forces - RIF, I would have had to establish hardship - not just convenience - to stay on (I went to work in my Father's business).

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:47 am Sorry 'bout that, Mr. Stephens.

Note my present tense, but my source for the statement was a '69 Guide.

And you’re quite correct in that the Cane Creek Branch appears to have never hosted passenger service.

Continuing with the absurdity of the RMT proposal, likely the best place to "overnight" the passengers would be Glenwood Springs, as I don't recall too much beyond rail facilities in Grand Junction.

Of course, they need offer an "Aspen option" for those paying $5000 ppdo and otherwise "wouldn't be seen" in "low brow" Glenwood Springs.

The Hotel Denver in GS is much more the "railfan Mecca" than is the better known "Hotel Colorado". Another point is I'm at a loss to think of where they would park the train there (last through there by auto during '14; never ridden the Amtrak-era Zephyr).

"Uh, don't think" they'd "exactly" want to tie up in Rifle (about half way between GS and GJ).

Again, all this is "Fantasyland".

All interesting; the line, Cane Creek Branch, was built during the '60's to serve a Potash mine. "Pacing it" on the Googlemobile, I would guess it to be not more than FRA Class 2 (psgr; 30 mph).

There is much discussion regarding this proposal at another site (look around for "the usual suspects"). Some of their discussions relate the "shaky" financial status of Rocky Mountain Tours, and that they are looking at declining ridership - even pre-COVID. Who knows what effect COVID has had on their financial stability, but I'd place bets "it ain't pretty".

All told, I think the whole "proposal" was little more than a "media splash".

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:21 amSo, in the Keystone/Harrisburg topic, there's been talk about Pennsylvania buying out Amtrak and operating Keystones themselves. Their motivation ostensibly is, to paraphrase: “keep PA money in PA”, and not subsidize Amtrak, but rather, their own service.

I posited that perhaps they should contract it out to a private operator, which shall form the basis of this discussion.

There have always been proposals to privatize Amtrak, or break it up. I’m going in a bit of a different direction here. Amtrak would become less of an operator, and more of a transportation agency overseeing rail operations and ROW ownership.

Which lines could you see being ideal for private operation, and which operators?

I'll start us off:

• Keystone. Duh.
• Empire NYS. I think this is a no-brainer, particularly ALB-NYP. Leave west of ALB to Long Distance.
• Chicago–Milwaukee
• Florida from Jacksonville south. The Florida trains are daylight schedule, right? Except perhaps the Star, which is only a few hours off.
• Sacramento to Oakland
• Charlotte to Atlanta

What else ya got?

So the idea here is really to create more layers of government control? No operator would be “private”; if that were the case, then the states ought to help the actual owners of the railroads to take back passenger operations and without onerous overregulation and/or taxation, or else it is state operation with a state-approved operator (already the European and Asian companies are leaving bad tastes in passengers’ mouths) over someone else’s railroad.

Keystones operated by the state of PA means the last stop is 30th Street. Amtrak will not let those trains onto their Northeast Corridor.

The idea of having state-run trains from New York to Rensselaer (not Albany) seems to make no sense, and instead of going to NYP they may have to go to GCT; the West Side railroad is not going to be bought up by the state at this point. Would NYS then extend third rail north of Croton to Rensselaer to make this happen (let’s “go green” if you are serious, guys), or would all of their state money be tied up with the three-times-the-estimate and eleven-years-late East Side Access project?

Hiawathas are interstate. Metra runs to Kenosha WI on the former CNW, but would Wisconsin be willing to switch their former MILW service to what may end up as (borrowed) gallery-car operations from time to time?

BTW, the notion of Amtrak merely being a ROW owner/operator is more like the UK’s not-so-good idea of not-full privatization, where all of the infrastructure is kept under state control under the “Network Rail” umbrella; just another beast to be fed.