CR on the Southern Secondary

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:01 pm To answer a few questions.

At this point, only NJ Seashore Lines has shown interest in the TRIT. Conrail no longer cares for this line and wants nothing to do with it. The rumors about other railroads being interested in the Southern and other Conrail lines comes from recent attempts by North Jersey management to sell off the Southern and the Freehold industrial. No attempts at sale have been successful. A takeover by another railroad has not been confirmed at this time and is very unlikely to happen.

I'm pretty sure Red Bank Recycling couldn't get cars because NJ Transits freight restrictions, but I could be wrong. The claim that the rail siding there would increase truck traffic confuses me. How would having all outbound scrap loads going out by rail increase truck traffic? They already get a lot of trucks in there as it is so I really don't see why the siding would somehow make that problem worse.

An intersection for trucks going into and out of the old Ciba Geicy plant already exists. Once the trucks are on 37, traffic will be fine provided the trucks stay right as much as possible, which most trucks on 37 do fortunately.

The crossing would only be for trains going into and out of the terminal, provided those trains stay moving at track speed (10 to 15 mph if the tracks are rebuilt properly) then traffic would probably only be held up for a few minutes. I don't expect very long trains going through there anyways. Worst case a train breaks down and drivers have to detour down Mule Road and take the back way to either Bananier Dr or St Catherine Blvd.

I am not allowed to release details, but all I can say is that it is extremely likely that NJSL won't be taking over the Southern and FIT, and another contender will. As for RBR, as I've always said before, the weight restrictions are still not an issue. Brick has been able to receive the same cars, and the OI-16/JR5 brings down at least 5 to 10 *loaded* scrap gondolas per trip, over the Raritan River Bridge, one of the supposed hindrances according to your statistics.

Even if the TRIT to BG was put back into the service, BG started taking cars again, and the town was ok with it, there would only be headroom for 2 cars, 3 would be pushing it. As I've referenced before, that's not much payload. Lumber is not that much of a money maker, and two cars maybe twice a week won't justify rehabilitating the line for a while.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:01 pm To answer a few questions.

At this point, only NJ Seashore Lines has shown interest in the TRIT. Conrail no longer cares for this line and wants nothing to do with it. The rumors about other railroads being interested in the Southern and other Conrail lines comes from recent attempts by North Jersey management to sell off the Southern and the Freehold industrial. No attempts at sale have been successful. A takeover by another railroad has not been confirmed at this time and is very unlikely to happen.

I'm pretty sure Red Bank Recycling couldn't get cars because NJ Transits freight restrictions, but I could be wrong. The claim that the rail siding there would increase truck traffic confuses me. How would having all outbound scrap loads going out by rail increase truck traffic? They already get a lot of trucks in there as it is so I really don't see why the siding would somehow make that problem worse.

An intersection for trucks going into and out of the old Ciba Geicy plant already exists. Once the trucks are on 37, traffic will be fine provided the trucks stay right as much as possible, which most trucks on 37 do fortunately.

The crossing would only be for trains going into and out of the terminal, provided those trains stay moving at track speed (10 to 15 mph if the tracks are rebuilt properly) then traffic would probably only be held up for a few minutes. I don't expect very long trains going through there anyways. Worst case a train breaks down and drivers have to detour down Mule Road and take the back way to either Bananier Dr or St Catherine Blvd.

Whats the point of a transloading facility if the trains coming in and out of it would be infrequent and short?

Coast Line Railfan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:14 pm
I am not allowed to release details, but all I can say is that it is extremely likely that NJSL won't be taking over the Southern and FIT, and another contender will. As for RBR, as I've always said before, the weight restrictions are still not an issue. Brick has been able to receive the same cars, and the OI-16/JR5 brings down at least 5 to 10 *loaded* scrap gondolas per trip, over the Raritan River Bridge, one of the supposed hindrances according to your statistics.

Even if the TRIT to BG was put back into the service, BG started taking cars again, and the town was ok with it, there would only be headroom for 2 cars, 3 would be pushing it. As I've referenced before, that's not much payload. Lumber is not that much of a money maker, and two cars maybe twice a week won't justify rehabilitating the line for a while.

Who are your sources? And are they direct sources, and could you perhaps name drop the company within a few others so we have an idea without you spilling the beans exactly

The TRIT would also be a much better terminus for a MOM line than Lakehurst.

pdtrains wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:15 pm In the recycling case, since a new siding was to be built, that would require a permit from the city, and the city can deny the permit. Of course, the company can appeal the ruling, or sue if they feel they denial was handed down illegally, but thats an uphill battle. If the case was built that it would "increase truck traffic", then they were probably also applying to build a scrap transfer station, which is always a huge political football.
From experience, i can tell u that the only way to get some of these things approved is by schmoozing the politicos, which usually means contributing to their campaigns, at the very least.
A friend of mine used to be a freeholder in NJ, and he had free executive suite tickets to Giants games every year he was in office. Im sure the state of NJ wasnt paying for them. It was all so totally illegal.

As for building...I cant build a shed over 120 sq ft on my 5 acre property without a permit, the approvl of which is hardly a formality. It involves blueprints, archetectural drawings, and several trips to city hall and attending meetings....Or contracting with a building company which is a "friend of the city", in which case they can magically get that all done for me.

On an unrelated note, despite most of the rhetoric this electoral season, most of your problems are caused by your local reps.

That "friend of the city" situation is also why housing is so expensive here, for normal people, takes years to build a house (my parents built one in town, and it took them two+ years just to get blueprints through), but big developers will "grease the union" and artificially raise property prices...

Back to trains!

@JohnFromJersey Trains wouldn't be infrequent. Once a day at least depending on how it's setup and how many people use the terminal. I meant to say that I wouldn't expect massive trains into this place like what's seen on Conrails Lehigh Line. Probably could have worded that better lol.

All things considered, this place would probably be something like the Transflo yard on the Chemical Coast Secondary in Newark. Not too big, not too small, but enough people using it that it has a daily transfer that's usually done with SD40-2s.

Plus it's not like this place would be the only customer on the Toms River Industrial. There are a few people that could get shipments. (Amerigas Propane, ABC Supply Co, Mountain Millwork and L&W building supply are all along the ROW) Builders General could get cars too if they really wanted to. They were still getting 2-3 cars per trip for a while. Seashore Lines has the advantage of being able to advertise and look for their own business unlike Conrail, so it's easier for them to serve a potential customer.

Also you are 100% correct about the problems with local reps. It's one of the reasons why no one wants to move to Lakehurst lol.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:02 pm @JohnFromJersey Trains wouldn't be infrequent. Once a day at least depending on how it's setup and how many people use the terminal. I meant to say that I wouldn't expect massive trains into this place like what's seen on Conrails Lehigh Line. Probably could have worded that better lol.

All things considered, this place would probably be something like the Transflo yard on the Chemical Coast Secondary in Newark. Not too big, not too small, but enough people using it that it has a daily transfer that's usually done with SD40-2s.

Plus it's not like this place would be the only customer on the Toms River Industrial. There are a few people that could get shipments. (Amerigas Propane, ABC Supply Co, Mountain Millwork and L&W building supply are all along the ROW) Builders General could get cars too if they really wanted to. They were still getting 2-3 cars per trip for a while. Seashore Lines has the advantage of being able to advertise and look for their own business unlike Conrail, so it's easier for them to serve a potential customer.

Also you are 100% correct about the problems with local reps. It's one of the reasons why no one wants to move to Lakehurst lol.

Who would the main targets of the transloading facility be? Also, never heard about those companies on the ROW, the ROW is now surrounded by senior citizen communities in Holiday City

I drive through Lakehurst quite frequently. Not a bad place, kind of middle of no where, gives banjo vibes. Even without local politicians, I doubt it would be the hot spot for people to move to. Though its really close to the Parkway, Philly, and the Shore...

I can read between the lines, LOL. The Company has 4 shortline freight RR's in NJ, and a history of fixing things up, running on skeds that support the current shippers, and trying to initiate new business. My feeling is that, if they take over the FIT and SOUS, part of the deal will be some money to fix up between freehold and farmingdale, and possibly the TRIT too.

Fixing up the TRIT for 1 customer, 2 cars a week, isnt bad if the state throws in some money, and there is a potential to get more traffic. Lumber isnt autos, but 1 car of lumber today is equal to 2 cars of lumber in the past. It aint nothing.

I also wouldnt be surprised if they ran to woodhaven twice a week, if if would help new customers come on line.

I guess we'll see if the state can make the deal sweet enough.

While NJ, in theory, should be interested in helping business in the state, it has a history of chasing away 95% of the industry in the state in the last 50 years...so IDK if the state wants more business or not. There is way too much money that politicos can line their pockets with, in exchange for allowing condos and mcmansions everywhere. These guys would just as well turn NJ into one big bedroom community, if it helps them own a bigger boat.
Sorry, I dont hate NJ, i used to live in Bergen County. its just so politically corrupt. I just hate the corruption.

pdtrains wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:16 pm I can read between the lines, LOL. The Company has 4 shortline freight RR's in NJ, and a history of fixing things up, running on skeds that support the current shippers, and trying to initiate new business. My feeling is that, if they take over the FIT and SOUS, part of the deal will be some money to fix up between freehold and farmingdale, and possibly the TRIT too.

Fixing up the TRIT for 1 customer, 2 cars a week, isnt bad if the state throws in some money, and there is a potential to get more traffic. Lumber isnt autos, but 1 car of lumber today is equal to 2 cars of lumber in the past. It aint nothing.

I also wouldnt be surprised if they ran to woodhaven twice a week, if if would help new customers come on line.

I guess we'll see if the state can make the deal sweet enough.

While NJ, in theory, should be interested in helping business in the state, it has a history of chasing away 95% of the industry in the state in the last 50 years...so IDK if the state wants more business or not. There is way too much money that politicos can line their pockets with, in exchange for allowing condos and mcmansions everywhere. These guys would just as well turn NJ into one big bedroom community, if it helps them own a bigger boat.
Sorry, I dont hate NJ, i used to live in Bergen County. its just so politically corrupt. I just hate the corruption.

Is there anywhere not too far from Jersey that isn't corrupt? And seems like it's the C&D, but nothing legal wise has been applied for yet. If they do take over, maybe the line will be upgrade so trains can go a little bit faster

@JohnFromJersey The transloading terminal would be more convenient and cheaper for business than to ship their products via truck over long distances. It costs 15.6 cents per ton mile to shop by truck, vs 5.6 cents for rail. In addition, one modern freight car that is fully loaded can hold as many as 3-4 truckloads depending on the car and cargo type.

By bringing the cargo into Ciba, businesses would no longer have to bring all their products in from North Jersey or elsewhere. All they need to do is pay for the rail shipment (and a small fee for the transloading service) and have a truck go get the load. For outgoing shipments like scrap metal or garbage, the truck would bring it into Ciba where it would be loaded onto a rail car and shipped to its final destination on the next outbound train.

This type of service is exactly why Woodhaven is so successful. No need to bring the lumber in from far away when you can buy from Woodhaven and send a truck to go get the load. It's cheaper and more efficient.

This wouldn't be just for Toms River or Lakewood either, there's all kinds of businesses along Route 9 between Toms River and Manahawkin plus whatever is a little south of there that could benefit from this. The terminal would also generate jobs as people are needed to load and unload the trucks and railcars.

Upgrading track speed is more difficult than just ties and ballast. The problem is low rail joints. After the same rail being in place for 60+ years, and the weight of engines and cars all that time, the rail bows, with the low points at the ends on stick rail. This tends to make cars rock, which can become excessive at speeds generally over 20mph. Cars obviously rock differently depending on their length. But 15 mph and under has been shown to not have excessive rocking action. So in order to get the speed up, i believe you have to replace the rail. If the SOUS and FIT are like the rest on NJ, some of that rail is probably over 100 years old.

I dont know how expensive that is, but I hardly ever see shortlines replacing rail. I dont even see the class 1s replacing rail on their branch lines/secondary tracks.

And corruption...Yes, the east coast is pretty bad, Its very ingrained in politics. Lots of "thats the way we've always done things here" Its very popular for east coasters to bad mouth california, and its not perfect here, but a lot less corrupt than the middle atlantic states. More incompetence than corruption. I live in a town of 30,000 ppl. the Mayor, and all the council jobs are part time gigs. Most ppl who take the jobs have related full time gigs...like real estate, or architecture or something. They try to be honest, but sometimes they do things that are illegal cause they dont know any better. And still, if u need a favor, you go to a friend who went to school with the mayor, or something like that. Theres no blatent pay to play, but its not perfect.
As for cost of living...I hear everyone out east ask me how I can afford to live here. LOL. Its about the same, after all is said and done. Cost of food is the same, or a little cheaper. Gas about a .75 a gallon more. Housing about the same or cheaper. Sales tax and income tax a little more, Property tax less. And the weather...IDK how u put a price on nice weather.. But it will go down to 40 overnight, and up to 80 tomorrow afternoon. And clear blue skies like it is 90% of the time.
Sorry i got OT. I get a lot of bashing whenever I say "California". YAY DODGERS!!!

@pdtrains You are correct about the age of the rails at least in Central NJ.

Conrail got around a low spot problem by welding the rails at all the joints on the Amboy Secondary. (Or at least I think that's what they did) This was possible because all the rail sizes on the line where mostly the same, but the rail sizes and weight vary greatly in Central NJ depending on the location. Some areas of the Southerns mainline still have 80 pound rails and ties that were installed by the CNJ. Certain rail sections were made in 1893! If only those rails could talk. They'd probably tell us about trains way cooler than what we are served up with now lol.

Most likely those are thermite welds. Thermite (Ferric Oxide plus powered aluminum), burns at 4500 deg, and produces iron when it burns. RR's have thermite welding machines.
When we were kids and even dumber than we are now, we had pwd aluminum around from somewhere, and Ferric Oxide from one of those Gilbert Chemistry sets. SO we made thermite and I think we set it off with a propane torch. So bright, u couldnt look at it. I think we lit off a small amount in a small tin can, which it promptly burned right thru LOL.

(We also had potassium Chlorate, Magnesium, and all sorts of stuff that really can be dangerous. We set off our own combustion rockets from the back yard. And OMG...we had railroad torpedoes and use to take them apart . Even the tiniest pieces of that stuff were very contact/compression explosive. And RR fusees..LOL. Who needs sparklers when u have fusees. Does anyone use fusees anymore? Are u even allowed to?

Amazingly, I think u can still buy all that stuff from fireworks supply places....but expect u need a license or permit to purchase. )

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:20 am @pdtrains You are correct about the age of the rails at least in Central NJ.

Conrail got around a low spot problem by welding the rails at all the joints on the Amboy Secondary. (Or at least I think that's what they did) This was possible because all the rail sizes on the line where mostly the same, but the rail sizes and weight vary greatly in Central NJ depending on the location. Some areas of the Southerns mainline still have 80 pound rails and ties that were installed by the CNJ. Certain rail sections were made in 1893! If only those rails could talk. They'd probably tell us about trains way cooler than what we are served up with now lol.

The track by me in Farmingdale is, from the dates I saw on the rails, from at least the 1930s. Hard to believe that the rusty rails we watch every Thursday for a slow, barely dozen car train, saw elegant steam locomotives fly over them in a time when the Southern went a lot more places and had a lot more action... Long before any of us here.

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:26 pm

Coast Line Railfan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:14 pm
I am not allowed to release details, but all I can say is that it is extremely likely that NJSL won't be taking over the Southern and FIT, and another contender will. As for RBR, as I've always said before, the weight restrictions are still not an issue. Brick has been able to receive the same cars, and the OI-16/JR5 brings down at least 5 to 10 *loaded* scrap gondolas per trip, over the Raritan River Bridge, one of the supposed hindrances according to your statistics.

Even if the TRIT to BG was put back into the service, BG started taking cars again, and the town was ok with it, there would only be headroom for 2 cars, 3 would be pushing it. As I've referenced before, that's not much payload. Lumber is not that much of a money maker, and two cars maybe twice a week won't justify rehabilitating the line for a while.

Who are your sources? And are they direct sources, and could you perhaps name drop the company within a few others so we have an idea without you spilling the beans exactly

The TRIT would also be a much better terminus for a MOM line than Lakehurst.

They are direct sources, like I said, it is very likely C&D will be the new operator . There are of course opportunities for the sale to go South, but that's what it is looking like right now.

pdtrains wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:03 am Upgrading track speed is more difficult than just ties and ballast. The problem is low rail joints. After the same rail being in place for 60+ years, and the weight of engines and cars all that time, the rail bows, with the low points at the ends on stick rail. This tends to make cars rock, which can become excessive at speeds generally over 20mph. Cars obviously rock differently depending on their length. But 15 mph and under has been shown to not have excessive rocking action. So in order to get the speed up, i believe you have to replace the rail. If the SOUS and FIT are like the rest on NJ, some of that rail is probably over 100 years old.

I dont know how expensive that is, but I hardly ever see shortlines replacing rail. I dont even see the class 1s replacing rail on their branch lines/secondary tracks.

And corruption...Yes, the east coast is pretty bad, Its very ingrained in politics. Lots of "thats the way we've always done things here" Its very popular for east coasters to bad mouth california, and its not perfect here, but a lot less corrupt than the middle atlantic states. More incompetence than corruption. I live in a town of 30,000 ppl. the Mayor, and all the council jobs are part time gigs. Most ppl who take the jobs have related full time gigs...like real estate, or architecture or something. They try to be honest, but sometimes they do things that are illegal cause they dont know any better. And still, if u need a favor, you go to a friend who went to school with the mayor, or something like that. Theres no blatent pay to play, but its not perfect.
As for cost of living...I hear everyone out east ask me how I can afford to live here. LOL. Its about the same, after all is said and done. Cost of food is the same, or a little cheaper. Gas about a .75 a gallon more. Housing about the same or cheaper. Sales tax and income tax a little more, Property tax less. And the weather...IDK how u put a price on nice weather.. But it will go down to 40 overnight, and up to 80 tomorrow afternoon. And clear blue skies like it is 90% of the time.
Sorry i got OT. I get a lot of bashing whenever I say "California". YAY DODGERS!!!

Other than the rails, hundreds of rotted ties everywhere is also a problem. But yes, I have seen some crews do 25 MPH on the current rails, and to be honest, I'd want two seatbelts, a hard hat, and something to hold on to if I was in the cab lol.