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Discussion: Efficacy of Long Distance Trains

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by David Benton
 
Cool. lets ditch Amtrak's subsidies.
And ditch all the air and road subsidies.
Then it will cost about $ 800 to travel 400 miles or so , and a private rail operator can make a profit.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
RRspatch wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:29 am Oh well, back into lurk mode. Arguing with the anti Amtrak, VIA, NSW rail, Vicrail and QR rail (to name a few) gets old after a while. Like so many things (politics) these days we just end up talking past each other.
Mr. Spatch, I respect that you chose "to do this stuff for a living" - and did so for a mite bit longer than did I.

Now so far as your prior comments regarding advocacy, I think most active participants here are "all in favor" of locally funded development of viable short distance "Corridor" routes. They're out there, and so long as they do not interfere with a "host's" operations (more difficult absent public funding of additional track capacity, as Precision Railroading becomes "the new normal"), then "go for it".

But so far as talk of expanding the Long Distance system. there are other "web homes" out there (including the one that kicked me out, which I only joined in the first place to keep track on the health of one of their now deceased members who I knew face to face) where your views are quite "the norm".

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Amtrak706
 
eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:17 am
electricron wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:42 amRefresh my memory, why is the US government in the business of providing intercity passenger train services?
Good question.... Even though Americans had abandoned trains for their own cars or air travel by 1965, someone om Congress decided the Government needed to step in and keep trains running so we could still take pictures as they roll by....

From a business standpoint, it hasn't been justified for decades.
The LD trains still have quite solid ridership (or at least did before Anderson and covid). Someone is using them. We should study who exactly that is and how to expand on whatever niche they occupy. That will provide a “legitimate” reason to keep these trains running and HOLD ON to the trackage rights from the Class I roads that will never ever come back if relinquished.

These trains are an amazing experience. They allow one to see the country like no other mode of transportation, and also to experience the unique thrill of rolling along at 80mph through the night in a roomette. These trains are also such a small drop in the federal funding bucket that there is really no excuse to kill them for austerity. It won’t make a difference, and NO ONE was seriously considering it until Amtrak themselves suddenly became anti-LD in 2018.

If discontinued, the magic the LD trains provide will be gone forever, and a legitimate, existing ridership base will be abandoned. I know there are a lot of older people on here who make these anti-LD arguments, and I think it is selfish for you to deny the treasures of the past and present to future generations.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by J.D. Lang
 
I have to come out of lurker status on this one and generally agree with what was said by Amtrak706 about LD's experience and usage. There are many people that make the trip a part of they're overall vacation experience. Before Covid almost all LD sleepers were always sold out at least a month before the trains departure. They will never make money but they could do a lot more on the revenue side if they were to use all of their sleepers they have in hand. When ever the pandemic is defeated they should bolster the LD's capacity and market them nationally on the strongest routes and discontinue the weak ones and move the assets to the ones that are most viable and popular.

Yes I think people should have the ability to travel our country and enjoy some of the wonderful scenery that's out there as part of their vacation experience. Yeah I'm one of those advocacy people that belong to this forum and I couldn't let this topic slide w/o voicing my opinion. Point counterpoint I say.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Amtrak706
 
J.D. Lang wrote:I have to come out of lurker status on this one and generally agree with what was said by Amtrak706 about LD's experience and usage. There are many people that make the trip a part of they're overall vacation experience. Before Covid almost all LD sleepers were always sold out at least a month before the trains departure. They will never make money but they could do a lot more on the revenue side if they were to use all of their sleepers they have in hand. When ever the pandemic is defeated they should bolster the LD's capacity and market them nationally on the strongest routes and discontinue the weak ones and move the assets to the ones that are most viable and popular.

Yes I think people should have the ability to travel our country and enjoy some of the wonderful scenery that's out there as part of their vacation experience. Yeah I'm one of those advocacy people that belong to this forum and I couldn't let this topic slide w/o voicing my opinion. Point counterpoint I say.
I agree, although not necessarily about the "weak" LDs. Every single route, pre-covid, often sold out well before departure.

And I wasn't going to characterize the LDs that way, but before anyone flies into a rage about taxpayer funded vacationing, remember that national parks exist and cost far more money to maintain than Amtrak's LD subsidies do. They both serve the same purpose, preserving the beauty of America for its citizens' viewing. Plus, the LDs are also viable transportation much of the time (and if preserved, could be improved further).

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The Board, who are not all Trump appointees, and definitely not when they hired Mr. Anderson, has apparently decided that the LD's are simply not what 21st century passenger railroading is all about.

I realize the cost to taxpayers to maintain them is a "rounding error" within the Federal Budget. The economic cost to the Class I roads is not visibly measured and is between "none" to the advocacy community and "much" for those, operators and investors, who adhere to "The Gospel According to Saint Ewing".

"See The Country....travel Amtrak" was a tagline from Amtrak ads forty years ago. I guess it could still be today, but with the fast approaching need to re-equip those trains, and the increased burden they place on operations of investor owned business enterprises, and the deteriorating and the "not exactly on the cheap" experience from riding them, passenger railroading should be left to getting you from A to B, safely and efficiently, and without intrusion upon Class I railroads doing what their investors want.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by mtuandrew
 
I have to do the math on this, but it’s quite possible that most individual taxpayers in this country would pay more per seat-mile for state-supported service (via state property and income tax) than for nationally-funded trains. Whether Amtrak, a Class I host, or a third party operates the trains, when you add a middleman you add the high potential for more cost. I’m not talking about Brightline or Texas Central or commuter systems that are either self-funded or for regional use only.

Those who call for canceling Federally-funded LD service have to take that into consideration, and need to have a plan to manage costs beyond just “personnel.”

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Amtrak706
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:03 am The Board, who are not all Trump appointees, and definitely not when they hired Mr. Anderson, has apparently decided that the LD's are simply not what 21st century passenger railroading is all about.

I realize the cost to taxpayers to maintain them is a "rounding error" within the Federal Budget. The economic cost to the Class I roads is not visibly measured and is between "none" to the advocacy community and "much" for those, operators and investors, who adhere to "The Gospel According to Saint Ewing".

"See The Country....travel Amtrak" was a tagline from Amtrak ads forty years ago. I guess it could still be today, but with the fast approaching need to re-equip those trains, and the increased burden they place on operations of investor owned business enterprises, and the deteriorating and the "not exactly on the cheap" experience from riding them, passenger railroading should be left to getting you from A to B, safely and efficiently, and without intrusion upon Class I railroads doing what their investors want.
I suspect that it is not the whole Board that is evangelical about the Amtrak 2.0 agenda, as the members that were present in the Boardman era never brought any of this up then. I think it is mainly Gardner and his sphere of influence, plus possibly the recent Trump additions. The jury remains out on Flynn so far, as it remains to be seen how successful Anderson and Gardner are at courting him for the Amtrak 2.0 cause. If we somehow got rid of Gardner and his minions, this whole issue would vanish overnight. No one else besides the administration, who cannot write federal budget, is calling for an end to LD trains.

Amtrak already pays for trackage rights, although I’m sure it’s less than the Class Is say their slots are worth. The Class Is can afford and also completely deserve to pay the tiny difference in cost. Amtrak was created as corporate welfare, relieving the private railroads of their mandate to provide intercity passenger rail.

Amtrak’s “burden” on Class Is is not increasing. PSR is certainly not simply about making money, as many railroads are reporting far less net profit than in pre-PSR days (and were before Covid as well). It’s about the operating ratio and only the operating ratio, which those in charge seem to regard as more important than making the largest amount of money possible. If the Class Is can afford hemorrhaging away business to trucks for the purpose of stupid accounting games, then they can afford the “rounding error” cost of hosting Amtrak.

And no, most of the fleet does not need to be replaced soon. The ALC-42s are ordered, the ACS-64s and Viewliner IIs are brand new, and the Viewliner Is and Superliner IIs are only 25 years old. The Amfleet IIs are about 37 years old, but their replacement is already in an RFI. The Heritage Fleet is completely retired from revenue service. It’s only the Superliner Is that need attention soon. As far as I remember, they were waiting for their 2020 reauthorization to start that process. And even more, all of this is after accepting the idea that this equipment has a 50-ish year life span. That does not have to be the case, as it is all stainless steel shot-welded construction which can be kept viable basically indefinitely. The need for expensive obsolete replacement components can be remedied by a tech platform redesign, similar to what VIA has done with their Budd fleet several times and what Amtrak did with the HEP program.

And your last “A-to-B” statement is just anti-LD rhetoric. These trains are not just transportation, as I mentioned in the prior post. But most of all, you had the privilege of riding these trains, presumably many times throughout your long life. It is selfish to deny future generations this treasure, especially when there is no good reason to do so.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by eolesen
 
It's a good thing that people didn't view outhouses with the same level of sentimentality and nostalgia that some do with regard to long distance train travel...

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Amtrak706 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:30 pm Amtrak was created as corporate welfare, relieving the private railroads of their mandate to provide intercity passenger rail.
Mr. Amtrak 706, there is one point captioned above within your mature and respectful posting thst I would like to clarify and expand upon, if I may.

Yes, RPSA70, the Amtrak enabling legislation was "Corporate Welfare", and in the case of the MILW , and RI, it was too little too late (RI never joined). However, we must consider there was a now "sunsetted" regulatory agency, the Interstate Commerce Commission, and their State level counterparts, placing unconscionable restraints on the discontinuance of passenger trains.

What I think was ironic is that the Staggers Rail Act of 1980 was not enacted until that year. That Act enabled railroads to set non-discriminatory rates and services at their will, "sunsetting" the Department of Commerce ICC, and moving the remaining regulatory activities regarding rail safety and rate discrimination to the Department of Transportation - where they belong.

Now the irony is that had the roads all declined to join Amtrak and had chosen to "hang in there" until '76 when under RPSA70, they would have been free to seek discontinuance of their intercity trains. In all likelihood, some would have come off. But all of them away from the Corridor (PC was a ward of the State, lest we forget) would be gone, with not a Long Distance train remaining.

Finally, allow me to note that Amtrak is not mandated, absent an agreement with a Local agency, to run anything. They could give 90 Days Notice under existing legislation, and be "done with 'em". Obviously of course, there would be strong political resistance to such a move. So far as the contractual relationship with the roads, such is a bilateral agreement and not open to public review. But if still the same as "when I was there", if Amtrak did not tender a train to run, nothing was owed.

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Matt Johnson
 
The long distance network was experiencing ridership growth and even seeing some investment (such as the Viewliner II order), and delivering a useful service with improving farebox recovery. What changed (pre-Covid, which is hopefully short-term) other than the shift to a right wing administration with an ideological motivation to kill something that was doing quite well under the Obama administration?

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Johnson, I can only reiterate my earlier point; there weren't many, if any, Trump appointees on the Board when they hired Mr. Anderson. However, I will acknowledge that they sensed that the Trump Administration would have little use for LD's, along with the Republican Congress (both sides of the Dome), for the ancillary frivolities the LD's represent. So they instructed their "hired hand" to "get with it". He chose to start with The Chief, which made all the sense in the world, in that there was 350 miles of road for which Amtrak, or some publc agency, would be stuck with the entire maintenance bill for a "one a day".

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by wigwagfan
 
eolesen wrote:
Amtrak706 wrote: If discontinued, the magic the LD trains provide will be gone forever, and a legitimate, existing ridership base will be abandoned. I know there are a lot of older people on here who make these anti-LD arguments, and I think it is selfish for you to deny the treasures of the past and present to future generations.
If you want to subsidize "magic" then please submit your full and complete proposal to nationalize The Walt Disney Company, complete with the amount of subsidy I shall receive for my next trip to Disneyland and/or Walt Disney World. I could surely enjoy a family vacation and to share some "magic" with my children without having to pay what the privatized TWDC corporation wants me to pay.

Sorry, but "magic" is not one of the Enumerated Powers of Congress. Today, the "magic" of rail travel is already denied to millions of Americans each year because Amtrak simply cannot provide a truly national, non-discriminatory service to each and every American. Today, the "magic" of rail travel is too expensive for most who cannot afford a roommette for just one night, not to mention covering rent in their home or apartment for a month. Maybe you propose turning Amtrak into a national homeless shelter, enabling the "magic" of rail travel to the hundreds of thousands of homeless Americans who would otherwise have no experiential event unless they chose to hobo it? Or, what about those who want to experience the "magic" of another mode of transport - surely you would support those childrens' dreams too, even if it were riding in a NASCAR race car at 200 MPH down an interstate highway, or flying shotgun on a F-22? After all, those "magical" experiences are just as worthy as the kid who wants to ride a train, right?

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by jp1822
 
Going back to Mr Norman's original question - "Vision For Long Distance Trains?"

From Amtrak's perspective, I really don't think there's any long-term vision for the LD trains, other than shutting the long distance trains down as quickly as possible, and perfect timing - COVID-19 can help propel the cause. One of the former Amtrak President's (was it Claytor?) remarked that if you are going to run a passenge0r train, run it daily, or not at all. Of the trains battling on with tri-weekly service, Amtrak's done a pretty good job at stripping down onboard services to barebones. For example, the SP automat car at least offered cold sandwiches. How long will Amtrak coach passengers put up with the new cafe fare of largely hamburgers, hot dogs (not even sure if they are still on there), breakfast sandwiches, the instant soups, and microwave pizza as the core for multiple lunches or dinners? Most sleeper passengers are tolerating the flex meal programs. Amtrak was going to sell the flex meals in the LD cafe car, but looks like that isn't going to happen.

In addition to the "operate daily or not at all" - I'd also say that if the service and what little amenities can be offered on LD trains decline or are further abolished, Amtrak needs to just put these trains out of there misery.

The idea of operating all long distance trains with single level train sets - combination of Viewliner Sleepers, Viewliner Diners (and an alternate car of some sort), Viewliner Dorm, and next generation single level coach car definitely "works." Single food service car for LD trains is just a matter of time, particularly East of the Mississippi with a modified Viewliner Diner car. A "Market" prototype concept is supposedly being worked on in Wilmington now.

From a financial standpoint - Amtrak is making a significant investment in tri-weekly service, and for the long-term. The "reduction in force" is going to first cause Amtrak to burn through cash, before realizing any savings. For those employees laid off or furloughed (think about the decrease just in LSA's and LD dining car staff in both tri-weekly and "flex meal" service), they are exiting with some sort of "severance" (and even buyout) package. Amtrak's even agreed to pay healthcare benefits for 1 years - for certain employees. Even Amtrak's share of RR unemployment will dramatically increase. Furloughed workers can be called back to work, but perhaps this is just an "insurance policy" for Amtrak in case either Houses includes language for restoration of daily service in the next year. So I think there's no vision to re-instate daily service voluntarily, only if mandated, as re-hiring and bringing stored equipment back out is going to cost just as much as the cuts Amtrak's putting through.

Passenger train corridors likely have a future, but I think Amtrak even needs to re-think its role and service with the NEC, as working remotely has certainly spiked and likely here to stay. When the new Acela train sets are delivered, it may be Acela Express and Acela Regional once again!!!

Re: Vision For Long Distance Trains

  by lordsigma12345
 
I don’t think the long distance service vision is necessarily an all or nothing thing. I think there’s some they’d potentially hold on to and some they’d like to drop. The auto train for example is not going anywhere.
Last edited by lordsigma12345 on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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