Moving to one terminal per big city - wise?

The Amtrak operations are fine together at Chicago Union Station. As for Grand Crossing-after this project is done, will it eliminate the backup moves for the trains heading to Carbondale and the CONO? It looks like Homewood is a good suburban stop for those trains as it is near many busy roads.

njtmnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:36 am The Amtrak operations are fine together at Chicago Union Station. As for Grand Crossing-after this project is done, will it eliminate the backup moves for the trains heading to Carbondale and the CONO? It looks like Homewood is a good suburban stop for those trains as it is near many busy roads.

It’ll eliminate those moves, yes. Instead of backing over the Chicago River to the south or over the Air Line Bridge to the east, Amtrak would go straight south to Grand Crossing, duck from the north side of NS under the crossing to the west side of Metra Electric, then fly over Metra Electric and CN Lakeshore at the former Nickel Plate bridge at 79th Street. It will become just about as direct as the current route via CN Lakeshore, while eliminating the backup.

The big sticking point is what to do about Norfolk Southern being congested - can’t just feed another eight daily trains into their line with no consequence. There’s also some property takings that need to occur. (Also, I’m not sure which bridges are in usable shape, which can be repaired, or if some need replacement.)

Yes, it’s expensive. Very. (Probably could be less, if let as a design-bid contract.) But assuming Amtrak gets its dedicated line between at least Grand Crossing and the Chicago River, it'll eliminate a lot of delay and a lot of padding for all trains from the east.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:47 am The big sticking point is what to do about Norfolk Southern being congested - can’t just feed another eight daily trains into their line with no consequence. There’s also some property takings that need to occur. (Also, I’m not sure which bridges are in usable shape, which can be repaired, or if some need replacement.)

If they put in the full project, then that is taken care of: The 8 daily trains are put on a third track connecting to NS track that has the option to go on Metra Eletric track at Englewood. So the congestion is worked around.

That's good that in the future, the trains to Carbondale and NOL won't have to do those backup moves. I know that there was time taken off of the schedule on the former IC. Now that additional 10-15 minutes will help even more. It will nice nice to have the trains heading to points east have travel time taken off the schedule as well. Probably Metra's Millenium Terminal is at capacity anyway and when the South Shore starts running more trains, things will probably get "interesting" with capacity there. No point in having Amtrak terminate at Millenium Terminal.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:47 amAmtrak would go straight south to Grand Crossing, duck from the north side of NS under the crossing to the west side of Metra Electric, then fly over Metra Electric and CN Lakeshore at the former Nickel Plate bridge at 79th Street.

The grand crossing connection is planned to come up on the south side of the NS line (between the skyway and the NS tracks. It is a roller coaster (northbound goes right to NKP then left and over the CN-IC and Metra tracks then right down and under the skyway then left and up along the south side of the NS tracks). But there are no back up moves.

Connecting to the north side of the NS would interfere with Park Manor Yard. Getting rid of Park Manor would help provide a better main line connection to CUS (and LaSalle if needed) but NS wants to keep Park Manor. Connecting to the south side of NS allows for a connection to be built around the south side of NS' larger yard. CP 518 becoming the new bottleneck.

For those not familiar I have annotated the attached drawing.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:26 amIf they put in the full project, then that is taken care of: The 8 daily trains are put on a third track connecting to NS track that has the option to go on Metra Eletric track at Englewood.

The Electric District is at Grand Crossing. Rock Island is at Englewood (no connection track). I have seen one suggestion for an northeast quadrant connection between NS and CN at Grand Crossing but that is not part of the Grand Crossing project.

Building a northeast quadrant connection at Englewood would be possible but the primary benefit would be to reach LaSalle St. Getting to CUS would require using the Air Line connection and reverse moves.

Thanks for that diagram, justalurker. Fine for getting past Park Manor, but YIKES they’re building a new alignment to get to the west side of 47th St. Yard?

I feel like a Park Manor flyover or duck-under would be easier at that point, as costly as either of those would be.

justalurker66 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:35 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:26 amIf they put in the full project, then that is taken care of: The 8 daily trains are put on a third track connecting to NS track that has the option to go on Metra Eletric track at Englewood.

The Electric District is at Grand Crossing. Rock Island is at Englewood (no connection track). I have seen one suggestion for an northeast quadrant connection between NS and CN at Grand Crossing but that is not part of the Grand Crossing project.

Building a northeast quadrant connection at Englewood would be possible but the primary benefit would be to reach LaSalle St. Getting to CUS would require using the Air Line connection and reverse moves.

Wait a minute here... Let me compare your diagram with Open Street Map... and Google Maps...

Metra SWS goes to CUS. Rock Island goes to Lasalle. There is no track connection between the two lines at 75th Street at this time. The diagram is off in that respect.

And a mistake on my part, the Metra Electric doesn't run by there. I'll own up on that one.

So let me correct and reiterate: If CREATE is fully built, the two Amtrak lines will have a separate track from NS and be able to switch to Metra SWS's track to clear NS of additional traffic.

Now, for going NS to Metra RI... you go through the Park Manor yard. Just... duck your head under the CTA Green L.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:46 pmI feel like a Park Manor flyover or duck-under would be easier at that point, as costly as either of those would be.

Consider the plan preliminary ... it could be cut back and not do the connection south of the 47th yard. But other than the neighborhood that would be destroyed it would be a cheap build to connect from NS over to Metra and run around the west side. Not shown on the diagram is NS' own construction work where they have extended 47th St yard to the south and built a loop around the yard and "Echo Wye" - which also cut in to the neighborhood. Echo Wye and the yard expansion are part of the yard and not part of the main line tracks.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pmMetra SWS goes to CUS. Rock Island goes to Lasalle. There is no track connection between the two lines at 75th Street at this time. The diagram is off in that respect.

The diagram is labeled "Layout after 75th Corridor Project". The whole SW corner of the area shown will change to what is shown on the diagram. The 75th St project restores some abandoned bridges to use and changes the junction with the Belt Railway to be parallel railroads and flyovers instead of all flat junctions.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pmSo let me correct and reiterate: If CREATE is fully built, the two Amtrak lines will have a separate track from NS and be able to switch to Metra SWS's track to clear NS of additional traffic.

Amtrak's Michigan and east coast Limited trains (and the CoNO and Carbondale trains) will have a dedicated path past Park Manor and 47th St. There will still be a few NS and UP freights on the west side of 47th St, but not the heavy traffic using the two yards. Rebuilding 518 is not part of CREATE. Adding a South of the Lake passenger main east of Grand Crossing is not part of CREATE. But the CREATE projects in the area will certainly help.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pmNow, for going NS to Metra RI... you go through the Park Manor yard. Just... duck your head under the CTA Green L.

Or build a better connection - if needed at all. Assuming the grand plan of building a passenger main to the south of the NS alignment - possibly leaving NS to connect to another alignment - a connection across the NS freight mains to get to LaSalle would be counterproductive.

With LaSalle assuming the load of Rock Island and Southwest service trains a capacity issue would evolve. There are plans for a third main from 16th St south (there are already three tracks north from 16th St) ... but the trains have to go somewhere at LaSalle St station.

Since we've hijacked Tad's thread to discuss CREATE, I'm going to pull out one of Tad's good points and apply it here: Trains that can reliably take passengers 50-150 miles a little faster than driving can generate enough demand for much more frequent service than we have now. So I hope the CREATE project isn't just a way to make room for the existing trains, but that it also includes either the capacity for 2, 3, 4 times as many Amtrak trains as now, or at least includes provisions, ROW preservation, etc., to make adding that capacity simple if it's needed in the future. Anyone know?

How many houses are we looking at being taken and/or cut off from neighbors, stores, etc., by the new RR alignment? I can't tell exactly by looking at Google Earth. It looks like the alignments at Grand Crossing are all there, with no need to take homes, although I could be wrong, but the new alignment seems to cross several blocks of houses. I hope the project doesn't end up wrecking a big area of the South Side in order to help downstate travellers, and I also hope that the state doesn't nickel and dime people with the takings; that property can't be worth a whole lot as it is, so might as well pay the homeowners well and pay for them and any renters to move. It'd be a cheap way to minimize damage to the community and to minimize loss of local goodwill.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:15 pm How many houses are we looking at being taken and/or cut off from neighbors, stores, etc., by the new RR alignment? I can't tell exactly by looking at Google Earth. It looks like the alignments at Grand Crossing are all there, with no need to take homes, although I could be wrong, but the new alignment seems to cross several blocks of houses. I hope the project doesn't end up wrecking a big area of the South Side in order to help downstate travellers, and I also hope that the state doesn't nickel and dime people with the takings; that property can't be worth a whole lot as it is, so might as well pay the homeowners well and pay for them and any renters to move. It'd be a cheap way to minimize damage to the community and to minimize loss of local goodwill.

I linked to the Preferred Alternative document above that contains that info.

Ok, thanks. I see it. No list or numbers, but a line on a satellite closeup. Maybe a dozen houses or small apartment buildings lost, and probably an elevated ROW that doesn't block the streets. Already many vacant lots = potential to rebuild homes right nearby if people and, with luck. Not exactly the Cross-Bronx Expway for disrupting a neighborhood.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:15 pmSo I hope the CREATE project isn't just a way to make room for the existing trains, but that it also includes either the capacity for 2, 3, 4 times as many Amtrak trains as now, or at least includes provisions, ROW preservation, etc., to make adding that capacity simple if it's needed in the future.

CREATE is primarily about freight service. There are several projects (labeled starting "P") that focus on passenger service improvements (the RI over NS flyover was one of them) but most of the projects will only help Amtrak as a side benefit. Even the "P" projects are more focused on Metra commuter rail, not Amtrak.

Grand Crossing is the one that will help Amtrak more than any other service - but it also helps get Amtrak out of the way of freight trains and was originally pushed as a way to allow the SCAL to be taken out of service. Since CN plans on continuing to use SCAL, Grand Crossing will not replace SCAL.