by mtuandrew
justalurker: I have an idea, terminate the City of New Orleans at Halsted Street
Railroad Forums
Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 am Tad, you’ve brought up two points I want to address: using stations at the “natural end” (my term) of a train’s route, and lack of connecting traffic at least through Chicago.In regards to running into Millennium station I really don't think the catenary would be a problem for two reasons.
I’m not familiar with the routes of the Lincoln Service and Texas Eagle to know how they get to CUS from the southwest, presumably along the Heritage Corridor which best empties into Union Station. Otherwise every other train aside from the Illini/Saluki, City of New Orleans, and Cardinal has a set route that leads directly to Union Station’s doorstep. Even if moved to LaSalle, the Cap, LSL, and Michigan trains won’t improve their timekeeping so long as Norfolk Southern Railway isn’t invested in being a good host. The trains coming via BNSF and CP tend to be better, and also don’t really have better station options. That leaves the trains from southern Illinois (and the Card) as I mentioned.
First, can they even run into Millennium anymore? You haven’t addressed that they would need to run under wire, unless there is still unwired track in place (which doesn’t seem to be the case, from satellite views.) Assuming it isn’t Plate H certified, the process of de-energizing the wire each time Amtrak arrives with a Superliner train seems like a deal-breaker for Metra. Are there diesel platforms at McCormick if the trains can’t readily go further north on electric track? And what’s the relative cost of building out a station on the CN/IC Lakeshore Line versus building Grand Crossing/Nickel Plate connector?
Second, by saying “people don’t connect between trains, therefore let’s take away the possibility of connection” you’re going against every transportation precept. The name of the game shouldn’t be giving up the possibility, but making the connection stronger through route improvements. For the CN trains that could mean running with an NPCU on the far end as a baggage car - the backing move into CUS then becomes that much easier.
David Benton wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 am Is there any reason why the st Charles airline tracks cant curve north into CUS ? Seems they would have to go into the Metra yards side to do it , but seems quite doable to me. Maybe cheaper than the 75th crossing project?I’ve wondered that myself, but two things:
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:30 pmSoooooo close, but so far away. Zero CTA stations.mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm justalurker: I have an idea, terminate the City of New Orleans at Halsted StreetSounds good. With a minor rerouting the Cardinal could use the CN-IC to follow the same route through town and also terminate there.
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pmNo it's not. It's an artificial endpoint created in 1971.Tadman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:01 am 1. Send trains into the terminals at the end of their routesCUS *is* the end of the route for all Amtrak trains entering Chicago, whether or not the train is routed over one railroad or many to reach the station.
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pm Tell us how a CN-IC train would reach Van Buren or Randolph. New crossovers so they can run under wire into the most congested part of the MED?For a mile? There's space for another track as well if that's really your hangup.
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pm Draw up a service plan. List where you want the terminal stations. Then tell us where three hours away from your chosen terminal station along which chosen route will take the train.I think you're speaking in broken English now, but this is easy.
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pm Include in your service plan where the trains will be inspected and serviced. Understand that this is more than passing through with Lysol and Windex, emptying trash and toilets and filling box lunches (if offered) and water. Full mechanical inspection with a pit. Fueling the engines. Or are you planning on doing complicated moves to get the equipment to CUS after kicking off the passengers?Perhaps you didnt' read my post earlier but we're going to do this the exact same way the Downeaster does it. If it works there, it works here.
justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pm BTW: Thank you for not describing the Cardinal route through Chicago as "north on UP, west on BRC, east on Metra SWS, west on NS, north on Amtrak" when that path is nearly a straight line. But since that routes over several class 1s please let is know where the terminal at the end of the Cardinal route is.It may be in a straight line but there are multiple handoffs. If you've been on this train much, which I have, you know it crawls and we had an engineer testify to that on this very forum. His name was Espeemike and he posited that occasionally the train was rerouted to IC at Harvey and then downtown, and that it was significantly easier every time that happened. Given that IC is much quieter north of Markham after the EJ&E buyout, I'd suggest they run downtown over IC and terminate there.
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:57 amKeep in mind that the point of this thread is to solve a serious problem that occurs in a space from 10 miles out to downtown. This problem will never be solved otherwise. We can address station crowding, connections, mass transit, et al... but none will fix the main problem unless the trains go back to their natural stations.justalurker66 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:30 pmSoooooo close, but so far away. Zero CTA stations.mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm justalurker: I have an idea, terminate the City of New Orleans at Halsted StreetSounds good. With a minor rerouting the Cardinal could use the CN-IC to follow the same route through town and also terminate there.
Western Avenue? Oh, 6 blocks away.
Put a station on the Heritage Cooridor at Halsted Orange CTA instead?
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:23 amThat bridge is already in a tight spot. In order to do that, youd have to demolish the current SCAL and B&OCT bridges, build a new one, make it movable (navigable waters), and make it curve correctly to make that turn, plus find a landing spot in the yards, plus UP and CN still use the bridge for west-to-south freights.David Benton wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 am Is there any reason why the st Charles airline tracks cant curve north into CUS ?I’ve wondered that myself, but two things:
-it would be a mighty tight curve with possibility for derailments, and six-axle cars & power might be proscribed
-the SCAL crosses the Rock Island Division at grade, and you’ll be fighting a lot of cross-traffic.
It’s still worth investigating and possibly realigning the entire SCAL to point at Union Station (or even digging a new tunnel to replace the current line northwest of McCormick.)
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 am Tad, you’ve brought up two points I want to address: using stations at the “natural end” (my term) of a train’s route, and lack of connecting traffic at least through Chicago.Correct, GM&O all the way downtown to GM&O's historic terminus at CUS.
I’m not familiar with the routes of the Lincoln Service and Texas Eagle to know how they get to CUS from the southwest, presumably along the Heritage Corridor which best empties into Union Station.
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 am Otherwise every other train aside from the Illini/Saluki, City of New Orleans, and Cardinal has a set route that leads directly to Union Station’s doorstep.The Cardinal is questionable, and the Detroit trains historically used Central or LaSalle depending on the year. The post was inspired by the new-start plans to Rockford and Quad Cities, though. I remember seeing maps of Rockford service going over 2-3 hosts which is lunacy. Folks in Rockford just won't put up with that. They see it like this: " I can pay $12 and drive to Metra at McHenry or Geneva and get on a reliable train or $40 and get on Amtrak's science experiment." Same with Quad Cities. A handoff at Joliet where CN and UP already have their own in-line handoff, plus junction with BNSF, Metra, IAIS, and CSX? What a recipe for disaster. Just run it straight through on the Rock. No need for new infrastructure.
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 am Even if moved to LaSalle, the Cap, LSL, and Michigan trains won’t improve their timekeeping so long as Norfolk Southern Railway isn’t invested in being a good host.So my comments only apply to corridor trains, but the MC trains historicaly went to LaSalle or Central. Since the MC connection to Central is no longer here, LaSalle works just fine and avoids the 55th street yard zone of NS, which is a mess.
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 am First, can they even run into Millennium anymore? You haven’t addressed that they would need to run under wire,...And what’s the relative cost of building out a station on the CN/IC Lakeshore Line versus building Grand Crossing/Nickel Plate connector?
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:15 amFrom what I understand, backing movements require more than that. Currently a conductor rides the back of the shove, but a NPCU would require changing ends and a time-costly brake test. The way I look at it, if most major cities in the world feel connections are good to different stations, why is Chicago different?
Second, by saying “people don’t connect between trains, therefore let’s take away the possibility of connection” you’re going against every transportation precept. The name of the game shouldn’t be giving up the possibility, but making the connection stronger through route improvements. For the CN trains that could mean running with an NPCU on the far end as a baggage car - the backing move into CUS then becomes that much easier.
Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:15 am Keep in mind that the point of this thread is to solve a serious problem that occurs in a space from 10 miles out to downtown. This problem will never be solved otherwise. We can address station crowding, connections, mass transit, et al... but none will fix the main problem unless the trains go back to their natural stations.You may see it as THE MAIN PROBLEM, but I see it as PART of the MAIN PROBLEM. Moving back to separate terminals is all fine and dandy, but people need to get to those terminals, or else they get into their cars... and you end up wasting money on a failed solution that makes train travel much worse.