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Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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 #1545114  by erie910
 
I'm from the east, and left New Jersey in 1973. I have a couple of questions regarding the A subway line in Brooklyn:

1. The track map shows four tracks that continue east from the Euclid Ave. station before the line turns north to the Grant Ave. station. Were these four tracks intended to be a continuation of the subway line under Pitkin Ave., or were they intended for something else?

2. The connecting tracks to the former LIRR line to the Rockaways are between the tracks to/from Lefferts Blvd. If the line to Lefferts Blvd. predated the connection to the line to the Rockaways, it seems unusual that the tracks to Lefferts Blvd. are outside the tracks to the Rockaways. Was that entire junction reconfigured when the Rockaway line was incorporated into the subway system?

3. From what I recall from riding and from what I see on videos, the former LIRR line to the Rockaways was a 4-track line. Is any of the track material on the ROW north of the bridge south of the Howard Beach station original LIRR track?

4. When the subway line replaced the LIRR line to the Rockaways were the trestles over Jamaica Bay, as well as the swing bridges, that the LIRR used have the capacity for more than 2 tracks?

5. Was the LIRR Far Rockaway line ever connected to what is now the subway line at Far Rockaway? Could such a connection have been constructed? If so, why did not the LIRR choose to continue to serve the area from Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway by that connection, rather than abandon the operation altogether?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
 #1545149  by Jeff Smith
 
Not sure if you're referring to this on the A: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/IND_Seco ... _1929_Plan
Liberty Avenue Line: Extension of the A, then under construction. 4 tracks from Eastern Pkwy/Broadway Junction along Liberty Avenue to about Wyona Avenue, and then 3 tracks along the Liberty Avenue el from Grant Avenue to Lefferts Blvd. But, it didn't end there. The Second System would have made great strides in serving parts of Queens not served at all today (see details of Queens lines below). The Liberty Avenue line would have been extended along Liberty Avenue and then Brinckerhoff Avenue and Hollis Avenues all the way to Springfield Blvd., a distance of 6.2 miles. 3 tracks would have been present to 180th St., and 2 tracks from there to Springfield Blvd. There would have been a short 2 track spur running along 180th St. and then Jamaica Avenue to connect to the end of the Jamaica el at 168th St. Presumably, all beyond Lefferts Blvd. would be an el, but that is not specified. This line is sort of what the Archer Avenue line was supposed to be, as there would also have been a transfer to a line tying-in with the Queens Blvd. IND running down Van Wyck Blvd. That line would have also gone (as a separate line) to SE Queens (see Queens details below).
 #1545217  by bellstbarn
 
Question #3
The LIRR service from White Pot Junction (near Rego Park) to the wye at the Rockaways was mostly 2 track. I rode it before the trestle fire that ended service. I could be mistaken, but I think the 4 track section went only from Atlantic Avenue (where trains from Brooklyn climbed from the new tunnel) to Hamilton Beach. Aqueduct Race Track was there from 1894, so I am guessing that the extra two tracks were built at some time to accommodate crowds and provide storage space during the races. The book "Change at Ozone Park" would provide history and photos.
 #1545365  by bellstbarn
 
I have at hand Herbert George's excellent book, "Change at Ozone Park." A track map on page 28 shows the Woodhaven Connection rising to join a two-track line from WIN, immediately becoming three-track, and quickly becoming four-track at Ozone Park station. Track 2 on the connection becomes Track 4 at the station. Only south of the station is there a crossover from Track 4 to "express" or "storage" Track 2.
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A track map on page 32 shows Hamilton Beach station on Tracks 3 and 4, then four tracks merging to two at Beach tower. The text explains that winter time (without horse racing) closed Beach tower, and all movements were on the "local" tracks. No need for storage during a race.
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Onpage 6, a reprinted table puts Woodhaven Junction station 4.7 miles from WIN (Winfield), Ozone Interlocking and Ozone Park station 5.0, Hamilton Beach station at 7.4, and Beach interlocking at 7.6. That looks to me like 2.6 miles of four tracks.
 #1545408  by bellstbarn
 
The fire on May 8, 1950, crippled LIRR service across Jamaica Bay. Service from Penn Station or Flatbush Avenue now had to travel via Jamaica, Valley Stream, and Far Rockaway. There was an immediate catch. LIRR fares were generally mileage-based, and Rockaway Park fares across Jamaica Bay were lower than some on the Valley Stream to Far Rockaway segment. When Rockaway Park service was routed via Valley Stream, a rider might use the cheaper Rockaway Park fare but leave the train earlier. It took some time to smooth out the fare structure, and I don't recall the resolution.
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I must also point out that the word "Far" in Far Rockaway is from a Hempstead viewpoint. After all, the original imagination looked at a diagonal route from the Sound at Oyster Bay to Mineola, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Valley Stream, Far Rockaway, and Rockaway Park. Better historians may take issue with my formulation. In 1869 Near Rockaway (on the Long Beach branch) was renamed East Rockaway.
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New York State politics played a big role in the construction of the causeway across Jamaica Bay. Albany was already fed up with bailing out services on Long Island. Helping inhabitants of the Rockaway Peninsula was the task of City Hall. We tend to forget that money ran short in constructing the Independent in the 1930's. City Hall had to beg Albany for permission to borrow. Down through the years, Albany dominated City actions by all sorts of controls. The city thought it would get votes for giving a subway ride to the Rockaways, but it ended up a time-consuming visit to Fulton Street at double the subway fare. Besides, Robert Moses placed low-income housing in Wavecrest and Far Rockaway, far from industrial jobs. An analysis of A train passengers arriving at Howard Beach throughout the day might be illustrative. The cleaning crews and baggage handlers might outnumber the fliers. Buses n31 and n32 are loaded with workers following the original diagonal route north east from Far Rockaway.
 #1547531  by R36 Combine Coach
 
erie910 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:17 pm The track map shows four tracks that continue east from the Euclid Ave. station before the line turns north to the Grant Ave. station. Were these four tracks intended to be a continuation of the subway line under Pitkin Ave., or were they intended for something else?
There is a long standing myth or rumor that 76 Street, a partly complete station shell may exist. The original plan was for the IND to continue east to Ozone Park/Aqueduct, but the plans were halted by the war in 1942. The
tunnel cut and station shells up to Euclid were partly complete by '42. When work resumed in 1946, only work
up to Euclid and the Pitkin Yard was done (hence the stations east of Broadway Junction have the newer postwar
IND style).
 #1547873  by lstone19
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:20 pm There is a long standing myth or rumor that 76 Street, a partly complete station shell may exist. The original plan was for the IND to continue east to Ozone Park/Aqueduct, but the plans were halted by the war in 1942. The
tunnel cut and station shells up to Euclid were partly complete by '42. When work resumed in 1946, only work
up to Euclid and the Pitkin Yard was done (hence the stations east of Broadway Junction have the newer postwar
IND style).
See http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st.html from over 18 years ago on 4/1/2002
 #1547899  by RRspatch
 
lstone19 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:20 pm There is a long standing myth or rumor that 76 Street, a partly complete station shell may exist. The original plan was for the IND to continue east to Ozone Park/Aqueduct, but the plans were halted by the war in 1942. The
tunnel cut and station shells up to Euclid were partly complete by '42. When work resumed in 1946, only work
up to Euclid and the Pitkin Yard was done (hence the stations east of Broadway Junction have the newer postwar
IND style).
See http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st.html from over 18 years ago on 4/1/2002
Pay VERY close attention to the date that page was created.

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/10/19 ... th-street/