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Discussion related to commuter rail and transit operators in California past and present including Los Angeles Metrolink and Metro Subway and Light Rail, San Diego Coaster, Sprinter and MTS Trolley, Altamont Commuter Express (Stockton), Caltrain and MUNI (San Francisco), Sacramento RTD Light Rail, and others...

Moderator: lensovet

 #1544673  by Alphaboi
 
HSR seems unlikely to happen anytime soon. The Coast Starlight is about a 12 hour trip from Oakland to LA, but that's during the daytime. That's a good length for an overnight trip and there already are night busses running from LA to San Francisco. A night train from Oakland to LA would be cheaper than HSR and wouldn't need electrification. It might worth out a little faster with fewer intermediate stops.. Caltrans could run Viaggio Comforts cars with diesel-electric engines. Siemens could easily produce sleeper and couchette versions (or pods like the new Nightjets) that comply with US standards. Leave LAU in the evening and arrive OKJ in the morning. No need for a dining car; just a cafe/lounge/bar car. It'd be easy to offer much better amenities (like on board or at station showers) than busses at a reasonable price. Any thoughts?

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 #1544674  by D.S. Lewith
 
What could be done is work in tandem with Union Pacific to modernize the Coast Line between Moorpark and Tamien, but should start first with between Tamien and San Luis Obispo, and between Gaviota and Ventura. This would involve double-tracking and grade separation, as well as some realignments away from pedestrians, building a new tunnel underneat Cuesta Pass, which would shave off a lot of travel time, relocating tracks between Watsonville and Castroville to CA-1 to avoid going through marshlands, and electrification between Tamien and San Luis Obispo

Other parts like a new Edna to Gaviota alignment and a new Ventura to Los Angeles alignment would require federal funding due to all the tunneling, bridging and cutting needed (especially between Moorpark and Los Angeles) to create a straighter alignment.
 #1544680  by MACTRAXX
 
AB and DSL:

There once was an overnight train between Los Angeles and Oakland/Sacramento titled
"The Spirit of California" #18 northbound and #15 southbound
This service ran for 23 months: 10/25/1981 to 9/30/1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_California

From Amtrak April 24-October 29, 1983 national timetable:
#15 departed Sacramento at 7:25 PM, Oakland at 9:40 PM arriving Los Angeles at 8:15 AM.
#18 departed Los Angeles at 8:45 PM arriving in Oakland at 7:20 AM; Sacramento 9:35 AM.

The intermediate stops were: Glendale, Oxnard, Santa Barbara,
San Luis Obispo, Salinas, San Jose, Richmond, Martinez, Suisun-
Fairfield and Davis.

The service ended due to funding cuts during the Governor George
Deukmejian administration (CA governor 1983-1991).

A service of this type has been tried and can be successful...MACTRAXX
 #1544778  by John_Perkowski
 
HARK, HARK, THE LARK!
Attachments:
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 #1544805  by gprimr1
 
I like the idea of this of an overnight "Hotel Train." There is a bus service that popped up so there must be demand.

I think the way it competes with the Night Bus is by offering flexible embarking and disembarking times. Park it somewhere out of the way and give passengers a window of time to board at night and exit in the morning. This gives them flexibility to get on the train, get settled in, or take a shower and change into PJs. In the morning, the same, a window of time to get off the train. Early birds get off and go about their day, those who don't have to be somewhere right away can wake up a little later, showers would be available.

I would skip out on a full meal service. Board the train after dinner, and people can get breakfast after disembarking the train. A dining car is just more space and weight that could be used for beds.

I would install vending machines in a few of the cars as well as offering potable hot water at all times and fresh coffee in the morning.

I would work with vendors in the station to offer "Breakfast in Bed" pre-order option. For example, if there is a Dunkin in the station, you can pre-order your breakfast bagel and coffee, and the time you want it, and it will be communicated to the Dunkin store in the station, and they will deliver it to the car attendant who will deliver it to you. (For security, the inside of the train will be considered a sterile area, guests cannot re-enter, and vendors cannot enter.)
 #1544843  by Alphaboi
 
Oh, showers would be a huge win; even if they're in a lounge at the station. I took an everight bus to Montreal earlier this year (a regular Greyhound, not one w/ bunks). What I wanted more than anything else when I got to Montreal in the morning was a shower. A train is also much better than a bus for the disabled. IIRC on Cabin disabled passengers have to travel in their wheelchair and ask the bus to stop somewhere so they can use the restroom.

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 #1544846  by Gilbert B Norman
 
MACTRAXX wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:39 pm ...There once was an overnight train between Los Angeles and Oakland/Sacramento titled
"The Spirit of California"......The service ended due to funding cuts during the Governor George
Deukmejian administration (CA governor 1983-1991).
Mr. MACTRAXX, the "Spirit" was replaced by an additional San Joaquin, so it really wasn't a budget cut victim. I think it was more the case that the additional San Joaquin could simply deliver more "bang for the buck", which is what any party allocating public funds should be doing.

Reiterating points from the Amtrak Forum parallel topic, I rode the "Lark" both ways during December '63. One of the most memorable rail travel memories I hold is on the Eastbound run (there was no North or South on the SP) how I had an Engineer Side Roomette. I opened the shade somewhere near Oxnard, on a crystal clear Blue Sky morning, and was looking at the Pacific Ocean.

But I'm sorry, travel moments like such died sixty years ago; and with flights on all the "Big Four" (UA, AA, DL, SW) between four on the South (LAX, BUR, ONT, SNA) and three on the North (SFO, OAK, SJC) using any kind of overnight train will take much "re-education" of a travel market who had not even been born on A-Day.

Who knows if these niche "Owl Bus" services will even survive the COVID Recession. Their market is certainly "niche" and reviews of their service are, at best, "mixed".
 #1544950  by lensovet
 
D.S. Lewith wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:01 pm What could be done is work in tandem with Union Pacific to modernize the Coast Line between Moorpark and Tamien, but should start first with between Tamien and San Luis Obispo, and between Gaviota and Ventura. This would involve double-tracking and grade separation, as well as some realignments away from pedestrians, building a new tunnel underneat Cuesta Pass, which would shave off a lot of travel time, relocating tracks between Watsonville and Castroville to CA-1 to avoid going through marshlands, and electrification between Tamien and San Luis Obispo

Other parts like a new Edna to Gaviota alignment and a new Ventura to Los Angeles alignment would require federal funding due to all the tunneling, bridging and cutting needed (especially between Moorpark and Los Angeles) to create a straighter alignment.
Sorry what planet are we on? Why would you electrify part of a route that’s going to require diesel power anyway?

These overnight buses are popular because they are dirt cheap. $25 one way. Amtrak can’t even beat that in coach, yet you want them to be competitive with sleepers? Lol ok…even a roomette split between two people will cost $140/person today. Even if half that cost was the dining car and related service, that’s still nearly 3x the bus ride cost. And a college student on a budget won’t care about the amenities or the lack of a real bed. Someone with more disposable income will just choose to fly, for $50 one way, and be at their destination in less than half the travel time.
 #1545005  by D.S. Lewith
 
lensovet wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:41 pmSorry what planet are we on? Why would you electrify part of a route that’s going to require diesel power anyway?
You know we can use electro-diesel (or electro-battery) right? They exist
lensovet wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:41 pm These overnight buses are popular because they are dirt cheap. $25 one way. Amtrak can’t even beat that in coach, yet you want them to be competitive with sleepers? Lol ok…even a roomette split between two people will cost $140/person today. Even if half that cost was the dining car and related service, that’s still nearly 3x the bus ride cost. And a college student on a budget won’t care about the amenities or the lack of a real bed. Someone with more disposable income will just choose to fly, for $50 one way, and be at their destination in less than half the travel time.
My idea for an LA-SF train would be an at least daily intercity train like the Surfliner as opposed to an overnight train, actually (alternatively just merge that into the Surfliner as an extension of it and have trains run from San Diego all the way to San Francisco).
Anyways, if we are going by that logic then the California services (Surfliner, San Joaquins and Capitol Corridor) would have been dead long ago.
Yet we have people using them in spite of what you brought up.
 #1546487  by Gilbert B Norman
 
If CALTRAIN were agreeable to host an intercity CALTRANS train along the Peninsula, it would be a great idea.

This would allow the Starlight to become a SEA-EMY train relieving pressure from the "soon to drop like flies" Superliners and the costs of operating Sleepers and (possibly again full-service) Diners.

Through connections with the shortened Starlight can be made with San Joaquins at MTZ. Those choosing to ride the existing Amtrak-era "Coast Starlight" route will have to "overnight" in the Bay Area.
 #1567704  by tpsmyth01
 
Apparently, a new LA-SF train is part of Amtrak's proposal for their part of Biden's infrastructure package.

There are a couple of things that should be noted.

1. When Caltrain purchased the Peninsula corridor from SP now UP, UP retains exclusive rights not just for freight but also intercity passenger service. In fact, this "easement" is what Amtrak currently uses over the portion of the Caltrain corridor they currently operate over in the vicinity of San Jose. Thus rights to run all the way up to San Francisco are something Amtrak would obtain from UP not Caltrain.

2. I think there was more talk about a Coast Daylight Train back when the Coast Starlight had a horrid on-time performance southbound coming out of Seattle. Right now the majority of the ridership on the Starlight is Bay Area-LA so a second train along the same route would probably cannibalize the Starlight.

3. Many of the communities along the route do want more service. Salinas and Monterrey want either Caltrain or the Capitol Corridor to extend south. San Luis Obispo wants more Surfliner frequencies. Paso Robles wants something more than just the Starlight and places along the route like King City that the Starliner doesn't stop in just want some train to stop in their town. My guess is at least some of these communities will get their wishes.

4. I used to always think the High-Speed Rail advocates were privately totally opposed to any additional conventional rail service between LA and the Bay Area with the fear that it would take away from CAHSR but several of the more high profile groups supporting CAHSR do seem to be willing to support conventional corridor service between the Bay Area and LA.

5. Freight traffic on the route from what I understand is pretty minimal and in fact, it is isolated from the rest of UP's network by Caltrain on the North and SCRRA on the South with UP needing to use trackage right to get to it on either end. A bit surprised that UP hasn't tried to somehow get the state of California to take over the line.

6. The new sleepers Amtrak is introducing next week between Boston and DC will give a good indication as to the market for overnight travel on rail for short to medium length city pairs. If Boston to DC works maybe an overnight service between LA and SF will happen.
 #1567708  by Gilbert B Norman
 
tpsmyth01 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:07 pm 6. The new sleepers Amtrak is introducing next week between Boston and DC will give a good indication as to the market for overnight travel on rail for short to medium length city pairs. If Boston to DC works maybe an overnight service between LA and SF will happen.
Mr. TPSMY, such would require adding a train; what is being done out East is adding one car to an existing train.
 #1567720  by west point
 
The overnight LAX - San Francisco has much merit. One way to limit expense would be for the train to attach to the rear of one of the Cal train services at San Jose. The biggest problem with that is the very short platforms at many stops unless the service was not sold to the short platform locations. Business persons might like going directly into downtown and not having to deal with airports .

Now all California has to do is to fight for an allocation of 2 trainsets to run the service. That is going to be a real hassle with all the other demands nationwide for equipment especially with the new service proposals .
 #1567727  by lensovet
 
tpsmyth01 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:07 pm Apparently, a new LA-SF train is part of Amtrak's proposal for their part of Biden's infrastructure package.
Sorry, I'm looking at the Amtrak proposal and I fail to see an LA-SF train? I see new service between SJC and SLO, and improved service on SLO-LAX (and down to SD).

Let's leave the "attach some cars to Caltrain" (???) fantasies behind. There is absolutely no service being proposed on the peninsula.