Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

Whatever WADOT and Oregon DOT decide to have Amtrak replace the existing Talgos with, I hope that the successors will be able to tilt around the curves, otherwise the travel times won't be up to par.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:36 pm Whatever WADOT and Oregon DOT decide to have Amtrak replace the existing Talgos with, I hope that the successors will be able to tilt around the curves, otherwise the travel times won't be up to par.

if so, it would only really be because we are weary of running trains fast through curves. permitted talgo cant-deficiency on the Cascades isn't that much different from what permitted on conventional trains elsewhere.

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:44 pm

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:10 am There are reports on other sites that these Talgo sets will be sent to the Pacific Northwest and will be available July 1 for service.

But weren't these cars supposed to be replaced by Amtrak because they were deemed unsafe and the possible cause of the Cascades derailment of 2017??? (Talgos weren't the reason. The reason for the crash is going 70 in a 30 mph zone!) Also, wasn't Amtrak even ordering more Talgo coaches for the route?

bdawe wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:05 pm the older 1990s talgos without the enhanced crashworthiness features (i think?) are being replaced (the ones with the comfortable seats, I agree) as a way of blaming something other than deficient training for this accident

Couldn't have said it better. The accident and cover up were a paean to sh***ty management, and this is why I'm so hard on Amtrak. Yeah, there are lots of good people there. But the organizational culture is downright crap and we all know it. The cover up in the Talgo accident and scapegoating went so smoothly. Nobody even talks about it anymore, and Amtrak gets to play rolling stock god again. Because they are soooo good at doing that.

Forgot to post this yesterday, but two now-retired Talgo VI trainsets are being moved to Beech Groove for storage.

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2 ... or-storage

Two Amtrak-owned Talgo Series VI trainsets moved from Washington state to Amtrak’s Beech Grove, Ind., shop complex this weekend for storage following their retirement from use in Amtrak Cascades service in the Pacific Northwest. Ultimate disposition of the Mt. Hood and Mt. Olympus trainsets is unknown. Two other trainsets, owned by the Washington State Department of Transportation, remain in Washington. The Series VI sets were retired from service in the Northwest after one set was involved in a fatal December 2017 derailment in DuPont, Wash., which led to a National Transportation Safety Board report critical of the equipment [see “Safety Board says multiple state and federal agencies failed in 2017 Washington state crash,” Trains News Wire, May 21, 2019]. Talgo has contested the portion of the report finding the design of the equipment contributed to the accident’s fatalities and injuries [see “Talgo challenges NTSB finding in ‘Cascades’ accident report,” News Wire, Nov. 1, 2019].

njtmnrrbuff wrote:Whatever WADOT and Oregon DOT decide to have Amtrak replace the existing Talgos with, I hope that the successors will be able to tilt around the curves, otherwise the travel times won't be up to par.

The Horizon or Amfleet or whatever is being used as substitute has been approved by BNSF to run at "T" speeds. So non-issue.

The UP didn't allow any faster speeds for the Talgo trains (also not too many curves, except for between Oregon City and Canby) so again, non-issue.

wigwagfan wrote:The Horizon or Amfleet or whatever is being used as substitute has been approved by BNSF to run at "T" speeds. So non-issue.

That surprising. I always understood that the Talgos were granted higher speeds based on the use of the tilting technology.



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gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:07 am

wigwagfan wrote:The Horizon or Amfleet or whatever is being used as substitute has been approved by BNSF to run at "T" speeds. So non-issue.

That surprising. I always understood that the Talgos were granted higher speeds based on the use of the tilting technology.

So surprising would it be too much to ask for some published verification?
Or are we to take the word of one person who posts a lot blindly?

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:41 am

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:07 am

wigwagfan wrote:The Horizon or Amfleet or whatever is being used as substitute has been approved by BNSF to run at "T" speeds. So non-issue.

That surprising. I always understood that the Talgos were granted higher speeds based on the use of the tilting technology.

So surprising would it be too much to ask for some published verification?
Or are we to take the word of one person who posts a lot blindly?

I've seen responses from WSDOT on their blog on the topic:

The Horizon trains are approved and running at the same speeds as the Talgo equipment.

https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/ ... 7104866592

The Horizon cars are able to meet the same time schedules as the Talgo cars. There will not be any changes to the schedules due to the change in equipment.

https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/ ... 6381367033

Amtrak obtained approval to run the Horizon equipment at Talgo speeds.

https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/ ... 4889572826

Thanks for the information, it really helps!

Moderator Note: play nice.

Admin note: Wigwagfan, Erik Halstead, is a former Moderator here at Amtrak. He, like Mr O’Keefe, has long term credibility, and he lives in the PNW.

As Mr Stephens, mtuandrew said, play nice.

Motion Thirded. I like a good argument; snark, not so much, flames, even less.

Quick find from Trains:

Tilting reduces trip time only when the route has a reasonable concentration of curves with curve speeds between 50 and 80 mph. In this speed range, a Talgo-type train will be able to negotiate a curve at speeds 5-10 mph faster than conventional cars. Generally, tilting does not generate significant time savings unless the curve density on a route is 30 percent or higher.

https://trn.trains.com/railroads/ask-tr ... comparison

Some more info including a picture of the Talgo speed limit sign:

As this speed limit sign in Washington demonstrates, Talgo’s
unique design allows it to take
turns more quickly than conventional trains. On this curve conventional trains are limited to 65
mph while Talgos can do 75 mph.

https://www.hsrail.org/sites/default/fi ... ntages.pdf

Just curious looking at the operator in that narrow Avelia cab . . . why was Talgo required to redesign their sleek cab car into the now infamous "Ugly Duckling"? Supposedly Amtrak required room for two seats side-by-side. Why not here?