Amtrak Expansion Plan

It's not just about traveling from a station Upstate to New York City, Yonkers, and Croton-Harmon. There might be people who are traveling from Albany west to other cities along the Water Level Route to travel on vacation to Niagara Falls, Ontario. You could have somebody traveling from Albany-Rensellaer Station or Schenectady Station to Syracuse for a business meeting. If the train ran on a little faster and more frequent schedule across Upstate NY along the Water Level Route, then that would make people very happy.

As for the Hampton Roads region, it's a very interesting scenario. You have a lot of water separating Newport News and Norfolk and that's probably why Virginia DOT never wanted to combine the route that ends in NPN with NFK. Ridership is fine on both the routes heading to NPN and NFK. The Hampton Roads doesn't only consist of Norfolk and Newport News. You have other cities like Suffolk, Portsmouth, and Virginia Beach. We also need to factor in driving time getting from a person's home to the station. Once you are in Newport News and Hampton, you might as well just catch the train at Newport News because if you head on over to Norfolk, you may be sitting in a lot of traffic. If you live in Virginia Beach or are heading there, then taking the train to and from Norfolk would be your best option. I know that in the past Virginia and Amtrak toyed with the idea of adding a station in Suffolk which I think would be a wonderful idea. I remember seeing plans to build the Suffolk Station in the downtown area.

NK: Compounding the Niagara Falls problem along with US/Canada customs/immigration
is the GO Transit bilevel cars are built for low level platforms - the new Niagara Falls
NY station has a high level platform. The track across the Whirlpool Bridge is about 1/2
mile between NFL and NFS and is clearly visible across the Niagara Gorge. Barring any
through service (which unfortunately could become a big bureaucratic problem) a
connecting bus service could run NFL/NFS. When the Whirlpool Bridge was limited to
NEXUS Card holders the pedestrian walkways across the bridge to the respective entry points were then closed.
In this case the two stations NFL and NFS are reasonable walking distances apart...

Buff: The distance between Schenectady, NY (mile 160) and Hoffmanns (169) is 9 miles.
I do agree that this is another single track bottleneck - but since this track allows 110
mph operation it would only take mere minutes for a train to clear this section at maximum speed.
For the record Amsterdam - the first station west of Hoffmanns - is at mile 178.
MACTRAXX

NIMBYkiller wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:00 pm

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:53 am

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:37 am

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:19 pm Assuming that CSX continues to own the line, I don't think they will want NY State to electrify the Water Level route.

If there were ridership demand this route would be a natural choice for Amtrak to pursue the same strategy as they did in Virginia. Setup two additional tracks next to CSX. That being said it is not my impression that the ridership levels are the same. Plenty of trains though. Can anyone confirm the comparative ridership levels of ALB - BFX/BUF and WAS - RVR/RVM?

Rail Passenger's Association ridership reports:
https://www.railpassengers.org/tools-in ... tatistics/

The various routes are listed under "Routes":

Empire is listed under "Maple Leaf": https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 52/15a.pdf
VA Service/Richmond: https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 483/51.pdf
VA Service/Newport News: https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 481/47.pdf
VA Service/Norfolk: https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 482/50.pdf

Is there a way to see the actual number of riders headed to each destination from a specific station rather than just seeing what the top 10 list with no actual numbers? I'm curious to know how many people are traveling between certain upstate stations and NYC compared with riders traveling between stations in upstate (and I'd like to be able to do this comparison in general across the network).

No but each station's overall ridership is listed.

Here's Albany's: https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 85/alb.pdf

So it looks to me based on a cursory first look that corridor traffic between ALB and BFX/BUF has ridership levels just above WAS and RVR/RVM. That certainly makes the case for electrification and expansion interesting not only for these corridors but of course NYP-ALB as well.

I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:02 pm I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

Wasn't there a bunch of trains that did that back in the 1950s ?

west point wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:41 am

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:02 pm I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

Wasn't there a bunch of trains that did that back in the 1950s ?

Yes. I used to see them roll by my window at Marist College. I believe that Amtrak tried it as well. Was it the Niagara Rainbow?

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:02 pm I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

If you're going to do anything with the Lake Shore Limited my vote would remain on favor of separating the Boston section as its own train partly in order to give it better scheduling to/from Boston and perhaps add options for Cleveland.

And yes might as well call it the New England States.

My west coast foaming heart would like to see that sort of service on the Coast Starlight, with overnight service LA-Bay Area and daylight service over the cascades to the PNW. (which as first or second busiest of the LD trains I would like to think is non-insane)

A 12-hour shifted schedule would leave LA at 10 PM, arrive in San Jose at 8:30 AM, Oakland at 9:30 AM and Sacramento by Noon, and up to Mount Shasta by 5 PM. Sleep through southern oregon and arrive at Portland at...4 AM [ok that's kinda messed] with an 8 AM arrival in Seattle and noon connection to Vancouver, BC

Reverse is leave Seattle at 9:45 PM , Portland at 2 AM, Eugene at 5AM, and shasta at Noon, Sacrmento at 6:30 PM, Oakland at 8:30 PM, and settle in for the night and arrive in Los Angeles at 9:AM.

really does give the shaft to Portland, but otherwise makes some sense.

(now if I really wanted to go full-foam, I would observe that there's woe-fully under-utilized facility for turning and servicing long-distance trains at a major city and tourist destination four-rail-hours north of Seattle...)

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:45 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:02 pm I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

If you're going to do anything with the Lake Shore Limited my vote would remain on favor of separating the Boston section as its own train partly in order to give it better scheduling to/from Boston and perhaps add options for Cleveland.

And yes might as well call it the New England States.

BTW, it took me awhile to find my original thread on my idea a 21st Century Limited.

So I'm happy with 21st Century Limited and the New England States.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:45 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:02 pm I think it also make the case for a additional flipped LSL schedule. Overnite NYP to Buffalo, with a split or thruway buses to several destinations form there.

If you're going to do anything with the Lake Shore Limited my vote would remain on favor of separating the Boston section as its own train partly in order to give it better scheduling to/from Boston and perhaps add options for Cleveland.

And yes might as well call it the New England States.

I believe that was the plan at the turn of the century when Ed Ellis was at Amtrak, was it not? There was even the number pair 38/39 floating around IIRC.

Pretty sure it was Warrington , with his express fueled glide path to self sufficiency. There were some good ideas in it , unfortunately all the ones that made it into reality were the bad ideas.

Absolutely, Messrs. Benton and Rockingham.

As part of the Y2K "W Gang", with Ed Ellis "made" as consigliore, Network Growth Strategy plan, there was to be a Separate "New England Mixto Diario" BOS-CHI.

Also, an NYP-LAX that was not going to stop at CHI (the "PRR-CBQ interchange" was to be on the SW quadrant of 16th St).

Those were the days, Mr Norman, we had a lot of fun with the kitty litter express etc. You and others had me convinced the 6 month notices were looming , and i was ready to hop on a planne to get some last rides. Then, the self sufficiency idea quietly faded away . Mr Gunn arrived , and whipped everything into shape. Kinda of.
But my memory is the "National" wasn't going near Chicago , going south through Kansas City.

Member Kim Millard (kmillard), whom I knew face to face, had the best name for the Janesville-Chicago train (normal consist, one Coach, one Boxcar).

"Friskies Flyer".