AMTRAK NEC: Springfield Shuttle/Regional/Valley Flyer/Inland Routing

jxzz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:41 amI will be shocked if the bill is $1 B +.

Unless it's built using stainless steel so would I!

Somebody earlier in this thread mentioned abandonment and designs that contemplated short turning at WNL.

That seems about as likely as Acela service on the New Canaan Branch.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:18 am

jxzz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:33 pm In latest CT2030 plan by Lamont governor, there is no mentioning of Connecticut River Bridge. There are 18 CT bridges, many rail related bridges in the plan that needs a huge dollar bill for repair or replacement. In fact, the whole CT tolling argument is to get the money for repair/replace bridges.

I would assume if the bridge is not in CT2030, it is either not so bad, no need of repair or none of CtDOT responsibility. If the bridge is MA or Amtrak responsibility, it is unlikely that CtDOT want to voluntarily pay up for the cost. One controversial bridge in CT2030 for tolling is the one in fairfield county where the bridge is almost within New York stateline and majority of users on the bridge is expected to be from Weschester NY. Some NY congressmen protested against CT for such tolling plan ripoff.

The MRS line and bridge are owned by Amtrak. Amtrak is probably responsible to maintain the bridge in a minimal state of good repair. But as we are dealing with a line that only carries state supported Amtrak services and a state operated commuter rail line, a major capital improvement like renovating or replacing the bridge would likely have to be at least contributed to by the two states. I doubt pulling all the money from Amtrak’s federal capital grants would fly.

Couple of things.

First, the Warehouse Point bridge is *not* an iron structure built during the Civil War. It's a double-track steel plate-girder structure with a single through-truss span over the navigation channel. It was built in 1904-05 (I'm guessing by the American Bridge Company) to replace the the previous single-track wrought-iron bridge and is therefore of roughly the same vintage as the Conn River bridge at Old Saybrook and the draw spans at Devon, Saugatuck and Cos Cob. The New Haven poured a ton of money into upgrading its physical plant between 1895 and 1915, and there are virtually no mainline structures in ex-NH territory that predate that time. The only exceptions that I know of on the Springfield line are the viaduct through Hartford station (1889), and the (masonry) Farmington River bridge (1867).

Second, this is *not* just used by "state supported Amtrak services and a state operated commuter line." It's the primary freight route into Connecticut from the north, and is used daily by both CSX and Connecticut Southern freights. There is **ZERO** chance this line is ever going to
severed at Windsor Locks-- CSX is not going to start accessing Cedar Hill Yard by running around the horn through the Bronx or interchanging with the Housatonic at Pittsfield.

Yes it does also serve freight I guess I meant in terms of passenger it does not serve federally funded passenger rail as such as the states are going to have a roll in this. This bridge will require state funding and Connecticut has already stated as such. No idea what the ratios are, but the point is, it's going to be up to CTDOT and probably MassDOT to take the lead in planning it. The two states may be able to access some federal money to help cover their portions but it's likely to be largely a state/Amtrak joint project. Amtrak will come up with the plan, the states will have to figure out how to make sure they have all the money. I am happy that people don't think my concerns have any merit. I'd rather not see a truncation to Windsor Locks.

The bridge also carries the Vermonter, doesn't it?

troffey wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:07 pm The bridge also carries the Vermonter, doesn't it?

Yes.

I don't think that CSX has operated a train over the Warehouse Pt bridge in many years - Conn. Southern (CSOR) handles the CSX traffic between Springfield MA area and New Haven (Cedar Hill Yard). Pan Am Southern also operates between Springfield and Berlin CT around 4 times per week in addition to CSOR.

troffey wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:07 pm The bridge also carries the Vermonter, doesn't it?

The Vermonter is a state-funded train, paid by Vermont.

ebtmikado wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:27 pmThe Vermonter is a state-funded train, paid by Vermont.

All of it?

I could image north of Northampton or Springfield, maybe even New Haven or at the outside NYC.

But how much does Vermont really benefit from there being a through run from DC?

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:07 pmI guess I meant in terms of passenger it does not serve federally funded passenger rail as such as the states are going to have a roll in this.

Not true. Commuter rail service everywhere receives significant grant funding from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Also Amtrak provides some support to each state route so there's technically some federal support there as well.

ebtmikado wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:27 pm The Vermonter is a state-funded train, paid by Vermont.

Massachusetts and Connecticut also contribute.

ebtmikado wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:27 pm The Vermonter is a state-funded train, paid by Vermont.

The Vermonter is a hybrid service.

Between WAS and NHV the train operates as part of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor Service Line.

Between NHV and SAB the train is an Amtrak State Supported Service Line. The ConnDOT service area runs from NHV to WNL, the MassDOT service area runs from WNL to GFD, and the VTrans service service area runs from GFD to SAB. Revenues, third party costs, route costs, and support fees for the Vermonter are allocated to these states based on train miles in the respective service areas.

Yes, its complicated.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:17 pm

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:07 pmI guess I meant in terms of passenger it does not serve federally funded passenger rail as such as the states are going to have a roll in this.

Not true. Commuter rail service everywhere receives significant grant funding from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Also Amtrak provides some support to each state route so there's technically some federal support there as well.

I used bad terminology there. I meant exclusively federally funded trains like the long distance network. I do understand that the state corridors do receive some federal support from Amtrak's accounts and states can get federal grants for various things. But regardless the point is, the states have to take a leading role in a long term solution for this bridge - I'm sure it'll get some federal dollars but CT and MA Will have to cough up some cash.

The Vermonter is like the "super express" train of the Springfield Line and yes, north of New Haven, it is a state sponsored train with three state partners. The fares are higher on the Vermonter than the other trains that run up and down the SPG Line for a reason.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:45 am The Vermonter is like the "super express" train of the Springfield Line and yes, north of New Haven, it is a state sponsored train with three state partners. The fares are higher on the Vermonter than the other trains that run up and down the SPG Line for a reason.

The Vermonter is not very express, but at least you pause in comfort.

Pricing wise the alternatives are less expensive up to Springfield (the rest of Amtrak and Hartford Line have the same commuter rail pricing for NHV-SPG and points in between) but when I've looked north of there the Valley Flyer seems to actually come in about $10 more than the Vermonter for the same trip!

It would be nice if the Vermonter went a little faster through Wallingford. I don't know what the reason is for the slow speed through there, but it's not like the right of way through there is curvy as Hartford. Yes, the Amtrak Shuttle trains as well as the NE Regionals are the same prices as CTrail tickets when traveling anywhere between New Haven and Springfield. Btw, it's possible that in a few weeks, I may take a trip up to Hartford by way of MNR to NHV and then Amtrak Hartford Line Shuttle service.

I hope that those ridership numbers on the Valley Flyer trains are continuing to climb. I saw that when it started out, the ridership numbers north of Springfield were dismal but them so many people used it over Thanksgiving weekend.