Amtrak considers extending Wolverine line from Chicago to Toronto via (VIA?) Detroit

There’s no rail transit readiness built into the Howe Bridge, is there? That would solve some of these cross-border dilemmas, though obviously not for heavy rail.

second bridge would probably reduce auto , bus, and truck back ups ?

Back in the 1980's, A Via train passed through upstate Maine. US Border control was done on the train, A pretty casual chat and check of documentation. Don't recall a Canadian reentry check , it would have been middle of the nite, and presumably they would only check these joining the train in Maine. Or possibly it was locked through Maine.
But those were simpler days , when I got a multi entry lifetime USA visa by mail. That "lifetime" probably ended with 9/11, and rightly so.

Backshophoss wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:43 pm From a look at google maps.Not possible,the tracks end at the station,the wye there is also torn out.
Would be a long reverse move from the CP/CN mainlines.
Better off with Sarnia/Port Huron for the passenger train crossing

Why? Yes, the wye has been "torn out" but can't the connecting track be rebuilt? It's only about a one mile back up move from end of track of the Essex Terminal Railway to the Windsor VIA Station, As far as I know the ETR is in good shape. Some improvements can be made if higher passenger speed is necessary. Map courtesy of the Railway Association of Canada.

David Benton wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:14 am Back in the 1980's, A Via train passed through upstate Maine. US Border control was done on the train, A pretty casual chat and check of documentation.......

There were different procedures in handling the "Atlantic" over the years. When it was a Canadian Pacific train there was usually just a cursory inspection of coach passengers by US Customs. Sleeping car passengers were just left alone. The trains made several stops in Maine at Vanceboro, Danforth, Mattawamkeag, Brownville Jct., Greenville and Jackman. Local passengers were even handled between US stops but anyone boarding in the US and going to Canada was checked by Canada Customs when the trains reached McAdam New Brunswick or Megantic, Quebec. This was the same procedure when VIA took over and extended the Atlantic through to Halifax in Oct. 1979 and was still in effect when the Atlantic was first discontinued in Nov. 1981.

When the Atlantic was reinstated in June 1985 there was a whole new set of rules: Now US Customs/INS insisted everyone would be inspected. Even the Sleeping Car passengers were woke eastbound at 3am ET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pm ET (10pm AT) at Vanceboro. The trains were running long and full so there were major delays.

The restored Atlantic was only back a short time before people were calling for it to rerouted via Edmundston, New Brunswick to avoid crossing the US border. Passengers were switching to the Ocean in droves to escape the hassle from US officials even if they had to change trains and wait a couple of hours in Moncton

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was "Sealed" across the US with a metal "Tag" being placed on all doors except in the one car where the US Customs Inspector rode and only checked those getting off in the US. The “Atlantic” was discontinued in December 1994.

Greatly appreciate you sharing this ... Details I hadn't heard before.

Can anyone clarify the exact situation in Toronto? Are we correct in understanding that there is currently no pre-clearance facility present or planned?

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:33 pmCan anyone clarify the exact situation in Toronto? Are we correct in understanding that there is currently no pre-clearance facility present or planned?

That is correct. There is no pre-clearance facility present or planned for Toronto. It is simply too far from the border to be practical.

It’s almost like there needs to be a through car or two, not an entire trainset. Something that works on both VIA and Amtrak. It would take a dedicated transfer crew of course, but with generous timing it wouldn’t affect either Wolverine or Windsor-Toronto Service. The jog around both cities is just too much.

Though Ford could always gift a south Windsor station site to VIA and help fund Essex Terminal improvements, and make this a moot point by eliminating both the Walkerville and the New Center stations.

Adding a car or two would be difficult as VIA and Amtrak use different HEP setups. I don't think it is impossible, but would required a work-around. Up grading Essex Terminal RR to use the current VIA station or a new station on CP and then access the current VIA/CN track is the answer. Even a 40 mph speed would only take about 10 minutes on the Essex Terminal.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:53 pm It’s almost like there needs to be a through car or two, not an entire trainset. Something that works on both VIA and Amtrak. It would take a dedicated transfer crew of course, but with generous timing it wouldn’t affect either Wolverine or Windsor-Toronto Service. The jog around both cities is just too much.

Under current circumstances there will not be through Toronto - Chicago service as there is no point in attempting it.

Customs/Immigration will require leaving the train for inspection, at which point changing trains is just as easy as re-boarding the existing train and eliminates all the equipment issues.

At least a dedicated bus then, until (if ever) there’s a durable customs zone treaty between the two nations.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:00 pm Well ... The good news there is that the present station at West Baltimore Avenue in Detroit is ideally configured on a through routing. Port Huron would need a modification to the current stub end tracks but it doesn't seem like too much. Sarnia is favorably configured as well. The question beyond that then becomes whether or not Port Huron would need a new station to handle customs or if the preclearance would be done in Toronto. Seems like a major loss of online traffic forego so many intermediate stations.

Gokeefe and Everyone: On Friday June 28th there was a derailment of a CN freight train inside the St. Clair
River Tunnel headed westbound - about 40 cars and at least one locomotive were derailed. There was one
tank car that leaked some of its sulfuric acid contents onto the roadbed. There was significant track damage
and the resulting cleanup and restoration likely to take about a week.

After learning about this accident how would the International have been operated with the St. Clair Tunnel
route closed - would it had run through Windsor and Detroit or be bused between Sarnia and Port Huron?

I posted a topic about this incident in the CN Forum - and was surprised that no one here at Railroad.net
mentioned this previously...MACTRAXX

mdvle wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:44 am Customs/Immigration will require leaving the train for inspection, at which point changing trains is just as easy as re-boarding the existing train and eliminates all the equipment issues.

In 1975, I traveled from Helsinki to Moscow by train, and then, approximately two weeks later, from Leningrad (as it was then called) back to Helsinki. If the notoriously paranoid Soviet pogranichniki didn't make us get off the train for customs inspections, why does U.S. customs have to do so?

Maybe "they have no reason--it's just their policy." I've also read in various places that local Customs officials have a great deal of latitude in carrying out applicable regulations, and the arrival of a new area director can result in a change.

The unfortunate answer all comes down to... 9/11.

"We must do something to prevent another 9/11. This is something."
Almost all the security the US has done in the past 18 years has been theater or covering one's but.

It's far easier to walk across borders in Europe than US/Canada... and we're supposed to be "best friends".
But that's behind a lot of this.