Finger Lakes Railway (FGLK) Discussion

sd80mac wrote:Why is Camera more concern about that than the on-going violence in town lately? - couple murders, missing persons, rape (I think they had big news about that) and recently 50 some kids were fighting in town)... Geneva is really ugly town. only thing is beauty is the park along the lake. The track actually divided the beauty and the ugly...

yeah..but thats basically irrelevant and unrelated to the story of moving railroad tracks around..
If every city had to take care of violence and crime first, before doing anything else, nothing new could be done, ever..
the police deal with that..other people in the city government deal with things like moving railroad tracks and new development..
it is possible to do both at the same time.
so, good point, but irrelevant..

Scot

lvrr325 wrote:The East X-West X connection faces the wrong way.

The connection there was - 100+ years ago - 4 way, so in that configuration would not be "wrong way". The problem of course would be the changes that have been made in the intervening years.

I really don't understand what they expect to build here, frankly even with all the tracks gone there's not a heck of a lot of space there, other than one section south of where the LV crossed North Street,

What the politician is after is not up on the North Street end, it's where the yard is now. from where the LV used to cross west to the police station and motels. And you are exactly right, there is enough track which will HAVE to be left in that the whole project will be cumbersome, expensive, and still will not give them what they want altogether.

Just another Utopian pipedream, wanting to get rid of those nasty dirty old trains so we can have more trails and pretty parks.

sd80mac wrote:Why is Camera more concern about that than the on-going violence in town lately? - couple murders, missing persons, rape (I think they had big news about that) and recently 50 some kids were fighting in town)... Geneva is really ugly town. only thing is beauty is the park along the lake. The track actually divided the beauty and the ugly...

As a longtime resident of Geneva, I'd like to point out that the issues with violence we see are no different than any other city of our size, and that it is far from an "ugly town". Come have dinner on Linden St sometime this summer where it is closed off to traffic on the weekends. Come down to "Cruisin night" when downtown turns into one big party with hundreds of hot rods and show cars. Come down to Lake City Hobby to shop for some model trains. If I believed only what I see on TV or read in the news, I'd never travel to places like NY City, Chicago, or even Rochester - because all you see on the news is the bad stuff that happens everywhere.

The lakefront is beautiful and is our most prized asset, used for numerous festivals, athletic events, performances, etc every year, and the current layout of the FGLK yard and routes 5&20 is due to the slow retreat of the road and rails away from the lakeshore over the past several decades. I cannot see for a second how this will every get any traction simply due to the dollars involved, as this isn't just about Finger Lakes Railway - what about Suburban Propane's property? What about the other businesses on North Street that back right up to the tracks? Politicians in our city often get this pie in the sky idea going again and it gets shot down consistently because we like the lake front just as it is, without condos and a bunch of chain restaurants pilfering from what has been created in the city already. I have a feeling some of this misguided enthusiasm for moving the yard is coming from the recent successful push to keep FGLK from hauling trash trains to Seneca Meadows. Did I mention that I had to maneuver around 3 huge, slow-moving, awful-smelling tractor trailers this morning on my way to work?

On another note not tied to my soapbox, I was at a prototype modelers meet last weekend and someone asked me whether FGLK was still using the transfer cabooses with their radio control units? I haven't seen them move in a long time off the closest track to 5&20, is the technology such that they aren't needed for those operations anymore?

As Scotty pointed out, let's move on from socio-economic issues in Geneva, and stick to the railroad.

Thanks,

Jeff

With regards to the transfer cabeese, they weren't being used on GY1 last fall. I'll be back there in a few weeks, and will let you know if I see one in action.

I read the article referenced earlier in the thread and still can't figure out where the yard would be relocated, except that it sounded like somewhere between Geneva and Waterloo. I am assuming that we are talking about government owned property either currently or in the future. Perhaps someone can shed some light on the possible site for the relocated yard.

Thanks.

Poppyl

BR&P wrote:

lvrr325 wrote:The East X-West X connection faces the wrong way.

The connection there was - 100+ years ago - 4 way, so in that configuration would not be "wrong way". The problem of course would be the changes that have been made in the intervening years.

I really don't understand what they expect to build here, frankly even with all the tracks gone there's not a heck of a lot of space there, other than one section south of where the LV crossed North Street,

What the politician is after is not up on the North Street end, it's where the yard is now. from where the LV used to cross west to the police station and motels. And you are exactly right, there is enough track which will HAVE to be left in that the whole project will be cumbersome, expensive, and still will not give them what they want altogether.

Just another Utopian pipedream, wanting to get rid of those nasty dirty old trains so we can have more trails and pretty parks.

Based on a thread on this board showing 1938 aerial photos the X connection allowed southbound trains to cross from the Corning to the Auburn Road, only, there was no sign even then of a ROW for them to go the other way.


North Street parallels the entire yard area to the north, it becomes Border City Road at Pre-Emption St.. The only place where there is a great deal of room through the yard area is a section between 5&20 and North Street, just west of Pre-Emption Street, where the LV ROW that has been abandoned since 1976 once crossed North Street. This is also where Suburban Propane is (was?) and another concern are located, along with a few homes. West of that is a cemetary and then Middle Street with various properties to the south including what looks like businesses as well as residences occupy the immediate north side of the railroad property. Unless the plan is to build long skinny buildings with little to no access, or relocate the remaining main track as close to 5&20 as possible, I do not see what they gain here with this project. It would cost the city tens of millions in court and eminent domain costs, including purchase of property for the railroad to relocate it's yard on, to make this project work - and there is no way to eliminate having at least one track across the north side of the lake, unless they want to pay to rebuild the Lehigh Valley from Kendaia to Van Etten Jct., or some connection of the PRR from Penn Yan to Phelps Jct., either of which would likely cost literally billions.

poppyl wrote:I read the article referenced earlier in the thread and still can't figure out where the yard would be relocated, except that it sounded like somewhere between Geneva and Waterloo. I am assuming that we are talking about government owned property either currently or in the future. Perhaps someone can shed some light on the possible site for the relocated yard.

Thanks.

Poppyl

The article refers to "north of Geneva" so I'm guessing they may be looking at the Corning Secondary. I don't think the gov't would own the property. This would probably be a case of the developer buying the land in Geneva from FGLK, which in turns buys a parcel north of the city for their new yard.

lvrr325 wrote:Based on a thread on this board showing 1938 aerial photos the X connection allowed southbound trains to cross from the Corning to the Auburn Road, only, there was no sign even then of a ROW for them to go the other way.

I believe we had a couple different discussions on this, possibly 1 on the NY State forum and one for sure on the NYC forum. The following is from that NYC board discussion.

Postby RussNelson » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:20 pm

I GOT IT! I GOT IT! GO ME! Hooray Russ!!

Look at that picture closely. The east end of it is a WYE! Just as it curves to the north, an equal and opposite branch curves to the south. Once you know it's there it pops right out. Now look at the west end. It continues to follow the road, and cuts over north of the patch of woods to meet up with the other line. It's two wyes connected by their tails, shaped like an X!!

Woo hoo!
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Link here for Russ' post: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... ok#p911033" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately I'm only able to find the WEST X aerial photo but at one time we DID have an aerial which clearly showed traces of the south leg of the east wye. It may have been on that Cornell library link which does not seem to work any more. But the pic showed the wye joined the Fallbrook about where the car lot is now. So trains from the Auburn Road could go either north or south depending on which leg they took. Maybe Russ has a photo showing the traces of the east wye.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

poppyl wrote:I read the article referenced earlier in the thread and still can't figure out where the yard would be relocated, except that it sounded like somewhere between Geneva and Waterloo. I am assuming that we are talking about government owned property either currently or in the future. Perhaps someone can shed some light on the possible site for the relocated yard.

Thanks.

Poppyl

The article refers to "north of Geneva" so I'm guessing they may be looking at the Corning Secondary. I don't think the gov't would own the property. This would probably be a case of the developer buying the land in Geneva from FGLK, which in turns buys a parcel north of the city for their new yard.

Thanks, Matt. Just for my edification, when FGLK began operations, didn't the local governments or development agencies own the real estate including ROWs and lease it back to the railroad? Is that still the arrangement or does FGLK now own the real estate that it uses?

Poppyl

Either the city has to buy the land and transfer it to Finger Lakes, which is a little easier for them because they can use eminent domain to force a sale, or Finger Lakes would have to take a payout and then buy a suitable location. From what I can see, there are locations both to the north and the east that could be usable, they're just vacant farmland, although they may require more, shorter tracks to have the same capacity.

Thanks LVRR325. While we are on the subject of realignments, etc., where does the NS sale/transfer of the Fallbrook trackage between Geneva and Lyons stand. Maybe I missed something but I haven't heard anything about it in quite a while.

Poppyl

poppyl wrote:Thanks, Matt. Just for my edification, when FGLK began operations, didn't the local governments or development agencies own the real estate including ROWs and lease it back to the railroad? Is that still the arrangement or does FGLK now own the real estate that it uses?

You are partially correct. FGLK acquired the Geneva cluster from Conrail. Under the terms of the PILOT program, they leased it to the 6 counties where the ROW exists, and the IDA's of those counties in turn leased it back to FGLK. This was dine because the tax bill for the property was $1.3 million and the estimated revenue for the first year was $1.5 million. There is no way that Mike Smith could have run a RR with a net revenue of just $200K per year after taxes. The PILOT program was initially $360K per year (i.e. $60K to each county), which gave the FGLk the finaancial breathing room it needed to revive freight traffic. The PILOT program was renewed within the past year or two, but I don't know if it's still $360K annaully or not.

As far as I know, nothing's changed on that front, NS doesn't want to sell it or lease it or do anything with it. Makes me wish I'd tried to chase it when I had the chance.

poppyl wrote:Thanks LVRR325. While we are on the subject of realignments, etc., where does the NS sale/transfer of the Fallbrook trackage between Geneva and Lyons stand. Maybe I missed something but I haven't heard anything about it in quite a while.

Poppyl

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Rule #2: Believe NOTHING until you actually see it has happened.