LV Grade at Geneva

Great photo! thanks..

I see what you mean about the grade..
but.. was the LV really climbing up to cross over the NYC?
or was it already close to that higher level as it approached the NYC anyway?
The LV "stayed high" all across the rest of Geneva, beyond the NYC bridge over to the LV station,
so I think the LV was already a bit naturally higher than the NYC on both sides of Geneva.
there could have been a rise to get up and over the NYC, but I think the LV already "began high", so the rise for the
bridge might not have been significant..

I think you are saying: "LV was at roughly the same level as the NYC as it came into Geneva from the south, the mainline climbed up
to cross over the NYC, but the connecting track might have "stayed level" and didnt have a major downward grade..
the mainline rose, but the connector didnt slope down..or not much anyway".

I dont believe that was the case..I believe: "The LV was already higher than the NYC as it came into Geneva from the south.
LV mainline stayed pretty much level as it crossed over the NYC, then stayed at that level, raised up all the way across Geneva,
so the connecting track would have been a downward grade to connect the LV to the NYC"..

Scot

Photo showing what I believe to be the beginning of the connecting track..
you can see a downward slope:



(This photo was posted in another forum somewhere..sorry, I didn't record who posted it.
I usually try to do that, but failed in this case..if the owner is known, please let us know!)

Scot

Those aerial pics are great Scot - too bad the resolution isn't better but still a help! It appears the existing bridge over 5&20 was there farther back than I realized.

So Charles - you are asking about the part just west of that 5 & 20 bridge, down into the yard, correct? And we can presume the profile back in the LV days was the same as today more or less. I thought we were talking more about the stretch from VJ to the bridge.

I can't tell you the percent but for a short way it IS a drop coming west after the overpass. That stretch from the bridge to where the new connection is was not the best track condition and when bringing cars back from Kendaia we DID have to set some air to comply with the speed restriction.

You are correct, Don. The main in your posted photo looking west is +0.4%. It's level at the 5&20 crossing.

So given the grade is heading up, it could be the grade itself out of the yard is closer to level than is imagined from looking at my photos.

I recall a similar "optical illusion" with the Erie's Jeff Connector at Lanesboro.

The track from Starrucca down to the D&H Penn Division looks like it's downhill as you are going from up at the viaduct level down to the Penn level. But the Penn is on such a grade heading up (southbound) that the connector track ends up being fairly level.

Charles

Scot in your #627 photo, you can tell it's heading up the +0.4% grade now from the smoke.

Charles it's not entirely an illusion, the main may go up .4% but as I said earlier that yard lead DOES drop down pretty good. Not for very far - maybe 10 car lengths give or take for the worst part.

BTW, the Conrail track chart I found the .4% on does not give any data for the yard itself.

BR&P wrote: I thought we were talking more about the stretch from VJ to the bridge.

VJ? The junction of the freight and passenger mains? VJ for Victor Junction? (although a bit east for that)...
JS

pumpers wrote:

BR&P wrote: I thought we were talking more about the stretch from VJ to the bridge.

VJ? The junction of the freight and passenger mains? VJ for Victor Junction? (although a bit east for that)...
JS

It doesnt stand for Victor..
sometimes, less than half the time, the LV's call letters did obviously "match" to the location, but for most locations there is no obvious relationship to towns or nearby locations..
the exact reasoning behind which call letters were chosen for most locations is probably unknown to anyone today, unless someone out there has a really obscure document!
but thats pretty unlikely..probably, we will never know..

some info here:

http://www.anthraciterailroads.org/lvrr ... aph-calls/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scot

"VJ" was Geneva Junction, railroad east and compass south from the overpass we're talking about.

scottychaos wrote:It was quite steep..but! as a short industrial spur, it was never intended to handle entire trains,
so the steepness wasnt a major concern when you are only hauling one or two cars up and down it, with one locomotive..
from an older discussion about Geneva:



Lines in Red are the LV tracks...none of those tracks are still in place today.

Scot

This line in red continued all the way up along side the NYC yard to the LV freight house, which still stands today. I think there's still also few of the candy supports in place actually. Right behind the freight house, there's still abutments that were part of what I assume was a coal dealer:

http://binged.it/1HFIdlA

I think I have heard locals refer to this track and grade as "The toboggan track".

The track that came off the siding just west of Pre Emption Road was referred to officially as the Tobbogan (LVRR spelling) Track per track diagram to accompany Zone E General Order 829 dated September 5, 1965. Once walked that track and with proper snow cover a toboggan would most certainly have slid down the short grade.

The other track referred to which came off the siding at Geneva Jct.was officially designated "siding". The yard leader came off this track west of the Routes 5 & 20 overpass. Off the yard leader a hundred feet or so east of the yard office was the scale track. On rare occasions the power for the local would tie down on this track clear of the scales. Do not know what the grade was on the yard leader but will assume it was between 1 and 2 percent and anyone can feel free to shoot me out of the saddle on that one.

The LVRR Geneva yard tracks were removed during the summer of 1986. The r/o/w embankment between Rts. 5 & 20 and the site of the NYC (PC) overpass was removed during the summer of 1988. Believe the material from the embankment was used, at least in part, in the widening of Rts. 5 & 20 between the LVRR overpass and Geneva.

Re that LV yard, I believe they had a small car repair area. After rail use stopped but before construction started, it was learned there were some car jacks there. Supposedly they were mounted underground and when a car was positioned in the right spot, air could be connected which - with the aid of blocking - raise the end of the car up for truck removal or whatever else. They were said to be there for the taking but as far as I know nobody ever got them. Whether they were removed in the construction, or are still there buried, I have no idea. (Obviously if they are still there, they would be junk by now)

For what it's worth, the current connection to what's left of the old LV main *is* the connecting track to the NYC yard, but the northern end of it has been reconfigured since LV days.

The current connection to that track was built by Finger Lakes and required some excavation of the fill (although a lot of it had already been taken by that point). Starting near the old yard office it kind of S-curves around through the former embankment back around to the original connector. This left a dead-end stub aimed back toward the yard, which is the rest of the original track. Apparently they did this both so trains could go directly to Kendia from the mainline and because the track itself was in poor shape for the first few hundred yards out of the yard.

Somewhere I have or have seen a slide from the 1970s looking down that track and the grade, while steep by mainline standards, is not that terrible. Like the track down to the freight house, it was never meant for hauling too many cars at any one time. It obviously drops down from the mainline.

When I look at LV track charts, there is nothing on the SE quad of the LV/NYC diamond other than Empire Coke. The NYC/LV yard was on the SW quad.

The Finger Lake's connector to the LV is in the SE quad on the opposite side of the embankment from the yard.

Charles

With full credit to Scot Lawrence and apologies for my sloppy add-in, I've drawn the Finger Lake's new connector to the old LV in light blue near the crossing, which does cross the old main into the old yard but is not where the NYC connector was. That was on the south side of the LV.