njt/mnrrbuff wrote:What trains have been using the horizon cars? Speaking of horizons, when I visit my brother in LA at the end of August, I plan to make a trip up to Santa Barbara. I will ride the horizon set back. I heard the refurbished ones are nice.At least the trains running between New York and Albany (except for the Lake Shore Limited) have been running with Horizons on some consists in addition to the standard Amfleets. I am not sure about other routes such as the Downeaster, however. I know, however, that many trains now have one or two Horizons in the consist on the Empire Service.
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Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)
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by AMoreira81
by Gilbert B Norman
To address Mr. Aoreira's inquiry in his originating message, the Horizon cars were delivered during 1990 and 1991. They have been largely assinged to Chicago area Corridor trains, although prior to delivery of the present Surfliner cars, they were also assigned to West Coeast corridors. I trust this explains why they are a "new view" to many in the Northeast.
by hsr_fan
Horizons used to make a regular appearance on the Three Rivers, and a Horizon dinette was once used regularly on the Carolinian. But for the most part, they are indeed rare in the northeast.
You know, it sure would've helped with the current equipment shortage if Amtrak and New York had delivered on the promised 7 refurbished Turboliner sets! Even if the three sets that were actually completed were actually in service, that would help a bit. The bungling of that program has made it that much more difficult to deal with the bungling of the Acela program!
You know, it sure would've helped with the current equipment shortage if Amtrak and New York had delivered on the promised 7 refurbished Turboliner sets! Even if the three sets that were actually completed were actually in service, that would help a bit. The bungling of that program has made it that much more difficult to deal with the bungling of the Acela program!
by EastCleveland
Horizons have been turning up in the northeast for years.
They were a permanent fixture on my favorite "lost" Amtrak route, the Philadelphia to Chicago version of the Pennsylvanian. I've also traveled in them on the Lake Shore Limited, the Three Rivers, and on regional trains plying the NEC.
As mentioned earlier, the interior lighting stinks and the decor is fairly spartan. But that can be easily cured, simply by installing curtains and/or window shades, along with more "flattering" light bulbs.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Horizon used as the basis for the next generation of single-level coaches, sleepers, and diners. With their single pane windows, better headroom, and overall feeling of spaciousness, the Horizons are -- in many respects -- superior to every other car type Amtrak currently operates.
They were a permanent fixture on my favorite "lost" Amtrak route, the Philadelphia to Chicago version of the Pennsylvanian. I've also traveled in them on the Lake Shore Limited, the Three Rivers, and on regional trains plying the NEC.
As mentioned earlier, the interior lighting stinks and the decor is fairly spartan. But that can be easily cured, simply by installing curtains and/or window shades, along with more "flattering" light bulbs.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Horizon used as the basis for the next generation of single-level coaches, sleepers, and diners. With their single pane windows, better headroom, and overall feeling of spaciousness, the Horizons are -- in many respects -- superior to every other car type Amtrak currently operates.
by Gilbert B Norman
Interesting thoughts, Mr. Cleveland.
Obviously Standard Class service in the Corridor is here to stay (AFAIC so is Premium, Acela debacle notwithstanding) and sooner or later (my guess is five years), Amtrak or successor will have to place an order for new cars.
I would have thought a bi-level car based upon those operated under wire by MBTA, SEPTA and MARC would be the way to go. however, I've learned that there could be disability issues to address, such as access to Food Service. Apparently, to simply bring the disabled passengers their food does not comply with the law.
Obviously Standard Class service in the Corridor is here to stay (AFAIC so is Premium, Acela debacle notwithstanding) and sooner or later (my guess is five years), Amtrak or successor will have to place an order for new cars.
I would have thought a bi-level car based upon those operated under wire by MBTA, SEPTA and MARC would be the way to go. however, I've learned that there could be disability issues to address, such as access to Food Service. Apparently, to simply bring the disabled passengers their food does not comply with the law.
by chuchubob
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ...Mr. Norman,
I would have thought a bi-level car based upon those operated under wire by MBTA, SEPTA and MARC would be the way to go...
I suspect your brain said"LIRR" while your fingers typed "SEPTA". SEPTA has no bi-levels. NJT, on the other hand, has bi-levels on order.
Bob
by Gilbert B Norman
"Cudda sworn" I saw some SEPTA bi-levels when "I was last out", Mr. Vogel. but then I probably should have "covered myself' with a more blanket statement such as "several Northeast commuter agencies" 
Stand corrected, but what counts is that bi-levels are operated under 11KV wires.
Stand corrected, but what counts is that bi-levels are operated under 11KV wires.
by RMadisonWI
Speaking of Horizon cars, today I noticed a couple of remanufactured Horizon cars on the Hiawatha that were labeled "Businessclass." They do, indeed, have the same seating configuration as the other Horizons, some of which have been remanufactured and are now labeled "Coachclass." I'd like to know who the heck came up with the stupid single words for those types, and why they would apply "Businessclass" to a standard, run-of-the-mill corridor coach.
Horizon 54049 was remanufactured, but they forgot to replace the ugly, dirty carpeting on the overhead panels. Everything else was new on the inside. It seems that no two remanufactured cars I've seen have been the same.
Horizon 54049 was remanufactured, but they forgot to replace the ugly, dirty carpeting on the overhead panels. Everything else was new on the inside. It seems that no two remanufactured cars I've seen have been the same.
by hsr_fan
NJT Rider wrote:One of the limitations that the Bi-Level's have vs the single level equipment. I am not sure of MBTA or MARC, but the LIRR coaches can only platform at High Level Platforms. Amtrak would necessitate the ability to platform at High and Low Level Platforms.The MBTA, MARC, and VRE Kawasaki bilevels are designed for both high and low level platforms. NJ Transit's new bilevels will work with both high and low level platforms, as well as meet NYP clearance restrictions. But I doubt that any such bilevel will be the basis for Amfleet replacements, for reasons already mentioned here.
Last edited by hsr_fan on Sun May 22, 2005 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
by Noel Weaver
With regard to the last post, when Amtrak started up in 1971, or rather
when the routes were drawn up, the New York State service was operated
by Penn Central and was considered in nature to qualify for inclusion in
the Amtrak system by the nature of its operation and the use that it was
getting at that time.
In other words, it was grandfathered in to the system.
Even though it was grandfathered in, if New York wants more changes or
improvements now, they need to come up with some funds for what they
want to do.
New York has in the past put up a lot of money for stations, track and
signals and as a result, Amtrak has a fairly decent operation in New York
in spite of their high fares and the terrible performance by CSX.
Noel Weaver
when the routes were drawn up, the New York State service was operated
by Penn Central and was considered in nature to qualify for inclusion in
the Amtrak system by the nature of its operation and the use that it was
getting at that time.
In other words, it was grandfathered in to the system.
Even though it was grandfathered in, if New York wants more changes or
improvements now, they need to come up with some funds for what they
want to do.
New York has in the past put up a lot of money for stations, track and
signals and as a result, Amtrak has a fairly decent operation in New York
in spite of their high fares and the terrible performance by CSX.
Noel Weaver
by EastCleveland
For those who've never seen the inside of a Horizon coach. . . .
http://image26.webshots.com/26/0/8/75/3 ... iMD_fs.jpg
http://image24.webshots.com/25/0/10/72/ ... Pbl_fs.jpg
http://image26.webshots.com/26/0/8/75/3 ... iMD_fs.jpg
http://image24.webshots.com/25/0/10/72/ ... Pbl_fs.jpg
Last edited by EastCleveland on Sun May 22, 2005 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
by AMoreira81
NJT Rider wrote:One of the limitations that the Bi-Level's have vs the single level equipment. I am not sure of MBTA or MARC, but the LIRR coaches can only platform at High Level Platforms. Amtrak would necessitate the ability to platform at High and Low Level Platforms.You beat me to it! LIRR is the only passenger railroad with 100 perent high platforms, if I am not mistaken. Almost everywhere else in the country, there is a mixture.
by jp1822
Nice pictures of the Horizon coaches interior, but these are the recently refurbished Horizon coaches, and it doesn't sound like this is what is being run on the Empire Corridor. Rather what is running on the Empire Corridor seems be the totally unrefurbished cars witheither red or green coach seats. However, the Horizons with the green seats were lightly refurbished a couple of years ago for long and short haul services - during the Warrington era.
Correct me if I am wrong, but currently there are several types of Horizon interiors out in the Amtrak system, most of which can be distinuished by the color of the seats:
1. Totally unrefurbished coaches with red/brown seats
2. Horizon coaches with green seats that went through a minor refurbishment a few years ago (during Warrington era).
3. Recently refurbished Horizons with the blue seats as pictured above in the posting.
Then there are Horizone dinettes (all table seating) or cafe cars (half table and the other half club/business seats). These too have varied refurbishments - some with no refurbishment and in extremely poor shape. The newer refurbished cafe cars with half table seating and half club seating are supposed to have leather seats in the business/club section - I believe. Have not rode or seen one in person, but I believe I saw a picture of one. It is supposed to be similiar to the newly refurbished Amfleet cafe/business car that is half tables and half seating, the seating being leather for customers paying a premium.
My Experiences with the Horizons:
Don't like them......remind me of my daily commute on NJT to NYC.
1. On one of my last rides on the Three Rivers we had a really old Horizon dinette with the brown interior and red cushioned seats -all table seating. The walls and interior were disgusting. The attendant serving meals did do her best in sprucing up the tables with linens and flowers. Kudos for that!
2. One of my worst experiences on the Lake Shore Limited - a Horizon dinette was subbing for the diner on the Lake Shore Limited and it had some sort of overhaul done - mostly green cushions and green decor noticeable with some new Amtrak advertisements posted overhead the tables. The food they gave us was terrible. I was expecting something similiar to the Three Rivers, Cardinal or Acela Express (First Class) meals. Instead we got either turkey or ham sandwiches, which were just gross.
3. Rode the Pennsylvanian with a Horizon coach and it had green seats. I just remember the ride being very poor, lack of leg room (although some Horizons have been reconfigured for additional legroom and used on long distance routes in a crunch), the plug sticking me ever time I raised my arm near the window, and lack of ambience. Similiar to what one member described above - and yes the lighting also bothered me. At least on the Amfleets, you have the central lighting system, but somewhat dim, and then you can turn on overhead reading lights as needed. Horizon coaches don't have this.
Correct me if I am wrong, but currently there are several types of Horizon interiors out in the Amtrak system, most of which can be distinuished by the color of the seats:
1. Totally unrefurbished coaches with red/brown seats
2. Horizon coaches with green seats that went through a minor refurbishment a few years ago (during Warrington era).
3. Recently refurbished Horizons with the blue seats as pictured above in the posting.
Then there are Horizone dinettes (all table seating) or cafe cars (half table and the other half club/business seats). These too have varied refurbishments - some with no refurbishment and in extremely poor shape. The newer refurbished cafe cars with half table seating and half club seating are supposed to have leather seats in the business/club section - I believe. Have not rode or seen one in person, but I believe I saw a picture of one. It is supposed to be similiar to the newly refurbished Amfleet cafe/business car that is half tables and half seating, the seating being leather for customers paying a premium.
My Experiences with the Horizons:
Don't like them......remind me of my daily commute on NJT to NYC.
1. On one of my last rides on the Three Rivers we had a really old Horizon dinette with the brown interior and red cushioned seats -all table seating. The walls and interior were disgusting. The attendant serving meals did do her best in sprucing up the tables with linens and flowers. Kudos for that!
2. One of my worst experiences on the Lake Shore Limited - a Horizon dinette was subbing for the diner on the Lake Shore Limited and it had some sort of overhaul done - mostly green cushions and green decor noticeable with some new Amtrak advertisements posted overhead the tables. The food they gave us was terrible. I was expecting something similiar to the Three Rivers, Cardinal or Acela Express (First Class) meals. Instead we got either turkey or ham sandwiches, which were just gross.
3. Rode the Pennsylvanian with a Horizon coach and it had green seats. I just remember the ride being very poor, lack of leg room (although some Horizons have been reconfigured for additional legroom and used on long distance routes in a crunch), the plug sticking me ever time I raised my arm near the window, and lack of ambience. Similiar to what one member described above - and yes the lighting also bothered me. At least on the Amfleets, you have the central lighting system, but somewhat dim, and then you can turn on overhead reading lights as needed. Horizon coaches don't have this.