Knox & Kane ping-pong coaches for sale

This is probably a dumb question but as I'm not familiar with the subject, I'll ask anyway!

If there are restrictions with interchange to get cars back to LI and if there are safety restrictions for running those cars to carry passengers, etc. how do the tourist railroads in other states carry passengers in old, antiquated and out-dated equipment?

Have all those cars dating back to the early 20th century and possibly earlier been rebuilt and reconditioned to current-day standards while maintaining their original interiors and exteriors?

I can understand carting them from one state to another and having to submit to rules of interchange. That's why really old stuff is loaded on flatcars for transport.

But on the tourist line itself?

As I said, I have no knowledge of this so please fill me in.

Dave Keller

The main issue is anything traveling on a Class 1 railroad must have roller bearing trucks. Shortlines have less strict standards. (and lower speed limits!)
If I'm not mistaken, I believe the problem started around when some ex-LI P-72s were being shipped to New Hope & Ivyland, and derailed on CSX. This also sidelined Amtrak's mail cars that looked like boxcars.

By the way, Knox & Kane is selling them since they had a viaduct wash out and sever its operations, and it will not be rebuilt.

If I'm mistaken on anything, please set me straight!

Dave,

I'm no equipment guy but I'm somewhat familiar with the FRA. They are generally the only one's who'd get into the act if you wanted to run something on your own short line railroad.

Their laws are in the Code of Federal Regulations and you can look up any detail on the Net. Generally, as speeds go down, so do their requirements. Also, most of their laws permit old equipment to be grandfathered. With the exception of immediate safety issues (shatterproof glass comes to mind), they pretty much let old stuff run until until it falls apart.

Being somewhat behind the times, the FRA is not the typical repressive gevernment organization. They tend to respect private property rights and the right of an operator to do his thing. For example, they have virtually no jurisdiction over yards, yard track, etc...

Also, as a Carrier is responsible for any damage on a car they place for interchange, they perform a careful inspection when stuff comes on line so they don't have to fix things wrecked before they got tihem.

Those Ping Pong trucks had a nasty habit of falling apart at high speed. Should be interesting seeing them go over the road.

Maybe an equipment guy can offer more.

Clem

Clem,

I was looking @ the FRAs CFRs once and read something about historic equpt steam or diesel built pre 1948 is declared historic equpt and is not by law required to be equpt with ditch lights, how ever, it is the decission of the railroad running the equpt to make the requirements to have ditchlights or not.

for ex. LIRR can madate ditch lights on 39 but FRA dosent. with that being said LIRR can mandate that 39 is to have ditchlights if it is ran above 40mph and ran west of KO on any other part of the RR..

But i read that the FRA requires the shatter/bullet proof glass, and all emergancy things to fully operate.

as for the Pings, if they were shiped to LI by Rail, can they be so if done at a slow speed and can they run between riverhead and GY if the train does not exede 40mph, is this a LIRR dicision or joint between FRA/LIRR?

joe if the 200 can not run the pings will not run.
Mike Arnold
Secratary
Twin Forks Chapter of the NRHS

[quote="trainspot"]By the way, Knox & Kane is selling them since they had a viaduct wash out and sever its operations, and it will not be rebuilt.

If I'm mistaken on anything, please set me straight![/quote]

OK, I will.

The 1750 foot long 301 foot high Kinzua Viaduct was blown over by a tornado.

The tourist excursions did cross the bridge, but only to a wye at the north end, where they turned. With the bridge gone it was hard to run steam (the excursion used a Chinese class SY Mikado built new for that service in the 1980's). With no steam locomotive, and no "train ride through the sky", patronage fell way off.

The steel viaduct had been closed to all traffic, both rail and pedestrian, for a bit over a year because of severe rusting. New structural parts had been fabricated and were being installed on the 22 towers when the tornado hit. The towers which had been repaired withstood the wind, the ten or eleven which had not yet been repaired collapsed. Blew over, really. They fell on their sides, dumping the plate girder spans 200 to 300 feet west of the line of the bridge.

But you're right in saying it won't be rebuilt. The state (which owns the viaduct) considered rebuilding it, but the estimated price, something over $40 million as I recall, was thought to be more than could be justified.

Can the rivits be welded in any way? or can the trucks be refabricated as welded trucks, and how substancial would it be?

How to move the Pings? Donated services, boys. Donated services. Assuming the RRMusLI, Twin Forks, Fof35, Sunrise Trail are all eligible for tax deductable donations, you might be surprised at who will donate what. This is all creative advocacy for programs that will benefit Long Islanders, school, and hisotrical groups immeasureably in the future. I can't believe there is no economical way to get these cars back to the Island.

I'm sorry I don't live on the Island (well, not really) in order to help execute these ideas. Those of you who are active in LIRR preservation groups must be sick of "outsiders" offering new things for you to do. Believe me when I tell you, this is not criticism so much as constructive suggestion. Would I was there to do more.

Joe,
It would cost alot to fabracate them I am geussing I am no expert, but I dont think they would take kindly to welds. But you never know maybe someday
mike

Mike:

Who wouldn't take kindly to welds? The steel structure of the cars themselves or the inspecting authority?

As a former welder I can tell you that, as long as the steel is not rusted through and is only on the surface, you can make a good weld providing you grind the surface to bare steel.

It does not matter how old the steel is, but the condition thereof.

Now, if the steel suffered any sort of temperature difference, causing the integrity of the steel to be compromised, (suppose it was in a fire, etc.)then you could have metal fatigue around the edges of the weld.

But, for all intents and purposes, if done correctly, the weld should be stronger than the original steel.

Dave Keller

Thats right dave.

with the welds and the rivits still in place them trucks aint going anwhere other then on the rails in 1 peice.

its up to the FRA to aprove of the act for safety, if welding them as is can make them runnable the doit. if that dont make they any saver and it will still prove dangorus to run then use them as statics

Anybody ever actually see a P-54 truck? To our eyes of today, they don't even look like trucks. There's a good reason that they bounced around like ping-pong balls! Can't imagine any Class 1 road would allow a P-54 to travel except on a flat car!

We had an estimate of $50.00 + per mile moving them on flatcars as "hospital cases". Is it technically possible to put other trucks under them, which could roll on Class I rails? If so could such trucks be donated, or loaned etc for the move? Even if they couldn't be run on excursions, the cars would make excellent museum displays.
Doesn't the trolley museum at Warehouse Pt. CT also have one? Last I saw it was just sitting on a siding. Would that be a viable candidate for a Long Island museum?
Roger

I may be totally out of it, but you're telling me that in order to ship an old passenger car on a flatcar it will cost over $50 per mile? At that rate, noby could afford to ship anything, anywhere. I can't beleive that is the bottom line. If it's true, you just gave the best reason in the world why the trucking lobby is winning over our guys.

On another note, those ping-pongs really flew in the old days. Today it may seem as though you couldn't tow them faster than 20mph, but on the Shelter Island Express of the late 60's, those mothers really moved! You'd also see them on Friday Montauk trains, trailing the heavyweights.

What happened to Steamtown's fleet? Are they still around or torched? I can not believe that recovering a string of six P54 coaches is a near impossibility.

It not impossible its not finincally feisable sadly at this time.

and its not "impossible" to get them to run on a class1 but it also is not finincaly feisable at this time,

to sum it up. its a freakin shame that we get screwed out of having our history returned, the RS1-this- whats next to come up and get blown over by our not enough room and money tornados