Possible SEPTA Diesel Alternative

Upon my travels though the internet, I stumbled across an article which detailed a new form of alternative energy for trains: Hydrogen fuel cells.

Here is the train in question,

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-n ... -design-uk

It's an Alstom Class 321 train car with a range of supposedly 1,000 km according to the press release.

This got the gears turning, what if SEPTA were to get a hold of an Americanized version, could they be used for the former SEPTA diesel routes? The only byproduct of fuel cells is water and heat which could work very well with the center city commuter connection.

The question is, what will be the hydrogen generation facility?
And what would make more sense,
HMU which don't use the existing electrical infrastructure at all, or EMU with batteries, for out of catenary range?

scratchyX1 wrote:The question is, what will be the hydrogen generation facility?
And what would make more sense,
HMU which don't use the existing electrical infrastructure at all, or EMU with batteries, for out of catenary range?

The core problem with battery tech is that it simply isn't energy dense enough."Hydrogen used in fuel cells has the energy to weight ratio ten times greater than lithium-ion batteries." https://www.furosystems.com/news/hydrog ... -vehicles/ and that's li-ion, compared to older battery tech like Ni-Cad and Lead acid batteries.

There are battery powered trains to your point, such as the class 379 electrostar https://www.bombardier.com/content/dam/ ... LowRes.pdf the trouble is that it only has an off the grid range of 50 km (31 mi) which wouldn't even be enough range to get from Norristown to Reading.

Furthermore it is not completely off the wall, there has been an American order from San Bernardino County Transit Authority to Stadler. https://www.gosbcta.com/project/redland ... ect-arrow/

Again to your point, the hydrogen generation facility is not here in America...yet. But...public investment in hydrogen production facilities could drive new demand

CV: The Alstom site shows what was a former UK Class 321 EMU converted
to an "HMU" for its hydrogen-based self propulsion as a Class 600.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_321

Scroll down towards the bottom of the page under "Hydrogen Conversion"

For a SEPTA application a dual-mode version of the new Class 600 HMU could be used.
What this HMU would need is to be FRA compliant and not be excessively overweight.

This could be an alternate to coach trains operating in and outside of electrified territory
using the very expensive Bombardier ($8 m dollars or more each) ALP45 DP locomotives.

MACTRAXX

It looks like the contract from Stadler is 23 mil for 1 train with 2 cars with an option for 4 additional trains. Keep in mind this is brand shiny new tech and for an extremely small production number and R&D costs https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/media/ar ... train/649/

but for more research from the DOE: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... hrhart.pdf

and a study from Shift2Rail from the European Union https://shift2rail.org/wp-content/uploa ... _final.pdf

Main issue is Hydrogen production and of course the hydrogen storage facilities that would need to be built.

In the magical theoretical world of "What if" I know Amtrak is replacing the P40 Genesis and NJ transit is replacing the GP40's...supposing a joint agreement between three transit agencies with hydrogen refueling at Powelton/Penn Coach yards and/or Trenton. Or even throw in MARC with refueling at Perryville. Granted I don't know enough about the practical limitations of the tech, but putting new investment into railroads across the east cost to maximize impact and give us all new shiny rolling stock would be nice

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:13 pm The question is, what will be the hydrogen generation facility?

Sort of off-on subject, the Boston area (MBTA) there was a push to get CNG buses. In the end the local area people, to the bus garage, were against the CNG fueling facilities so only two garages ended up with CNG. Then we looked at hydrogen fuel cell buses, first public comment "Hindenburg!" so that died on the vine.

So it maybe a great idea but getting the public to go along with it.....

JoeD

dieciduej wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:30 am

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:13 pm The question is, what will be the hydrogen generation facility?

Sort of off-on subject, the Boston area (MBTA) there was a push to get CNG buses. In the end the local area people, to the bus garage, were against the CNG fueling facilities so only two garages ended up with CNG. Then we looked at hydrogen fuel cell buses, first public comment "Hindenburg!" so that died on the vine.

So it maybe a great idea but getting the public to go along with it.....

JoeD

The difference is, that's a hydrogen-powered bus which is engineered differently than a multiple unit or locomotive. Europe was so impressed by Alstom's hydrogen-powered multiple unit that numerous European nations are looking into purchasing these vehicles, with Italy already placing orders for these HMUs (Hydrogen Multiple Units). The same technology can be applied to individual locomotives and can be engineered just right so that the flaws which might have been present in the unsuccessful bus could be perfected and proven sustainable and reliable.

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:02 pm
The difference is, that's a hydrogen-powered bus which is engineered differently than a multiple unit or locomotive. Europe was so impressed by Alstom's hydrogen-powered multiple unit that numerous European nations are looking into purchasing these vehicles, with Italy already placing orders for these HMUs (Hydrogen Multiple Units). The same technology can be applied to individual locomotives and can be engineered just right so that the flaws which might have been present in the unsuccessful bus could be perfected and proven sustainable and reliable.

It wasn't the technology as it was the storage of the CNG or hydrogen fuel and refueling of the buses or possible locomotive. With the major natural gas incident in Massachusetts people are less friendly to having a gas storage facility near them.

I think the hydrogen fuel cell is a technology who's time has come. But in the US oil is relatively low in cost and is king where in Europe where taxes on petroleum products is extremely high they are willing to embrace new technologies.

JoeD

Not sure why people are concerned with hydrogen manufacture. It's produced on industrial scales already, Wikipedia says 70 million tons/ year worldwide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

My concern is that septa doesn't have the money to be a risk taker with new technologies. Septa needs to provide safe, reliable transportation. They need mature designs, equipment that's already proven itself reliable. If fuel cells are breaking down, crippling trains, it'll be a disaster. Septa can't afford to buy conventional equipment as a backup, so we'd be stuck sputtering along, or cancelling service altogether.

dieciduej wrote: Sort of off-on subject, the Boston area (MBTA) there was a push to get CNG buses. In the end the local area people, to the bus garage, were against the CNG fueling facilities so only two garages ended up with CNG. Then we looked at hydrogen fuel cell buses, first public comment "Hindenburg!" so that died on the vine.

So it maybe a great idea but getting the public to go along with it.....

JoeD

I mean the Ford Pinto ignited, the DC-10 cargo door exploded and the 787 had battery fires, we make fixes to prevent accidents.

MelroseMatt wrote:Not sure why people are concerned with hydrogen manufacture. It's produced on industrial scales already, Wikipedia says 70 million tons/ year worldwide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

Well, sort of. The USA does not have the distribution facilities, and the majority of Hydrogen distribution is in California, Texas and Louisiana because 70% the current Hydrogen production is used for Petroleum refineries https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/f ... ted-states and 20% for agriculture. Additionally, hydrogen is made from coal gasification as opposed to electrolysis which is where hydrogen runs into trouble in terms of being a "green" energy

Again spitballing a coal gassification plant could be put at the former refinery in south Philly

MelroseMatt wrote: My concern is that septa doesn't have the money to be a risk taker with new technologies. Septa needs to provide safe, reliable transportation. They need mature designs, equipment that's already proven itself reliable. If fuel cells are breaking down, crippling trains, it'll be a disaster. Septa can't afford to buy conventional equipment as a backup, so we'd be stuck sputtering along, or cancelling service altogether.

Fuel cells are reliable, https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/assets/pdfs/58676.pdf I do concede it is relatively unproven tech in trains. Modern Fuel cells have been around since 1959 and were used in Apollo and Gemini programs.

As for the cost, assuming the winds of change hit Washington we could be looking at a green new deal which would incentivize investment in the railroads to reduce carbon footprint, especially green tech. Those hydrogen trains being built in Europe are done for carbon emission reduction.

I know this tech in trains is new and I am reaching here, but at some point we got to start dreaming big. This is the same country that built Apollo and the Eisenhower Interstate system and the best railroad system in the world

For a new transit route, HMU would make sense.
For existing electrified systems (MARC, SEPTA, METRA,MTA), electric with batteries for range extension would make sense, as it's using infrastructure already in place.
And as pointed out, the power used to process the hydrogen may be alot less green than say, a current power plant. Or hydroelectric dam, in the case of Septa West.

It is an interesting idea for a system starting from scratch. SEPTA has a last couple miles problem. Dual modes, electric with batteries, and the easiest, buying a half dozen diesel locomotives and running them with a diesel at one end and a ACS-64 at the other out of the gate. If the trains prove viable then you can look at some dual modes or more exotic solutions.