Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch

I was driving back home from dropping my kids off at summer camp in Penn Yan, NY this weekend. I drove through Hall, NY, which I have been through many times, but had come in a slightly different direction, and noticed what was clearly the old PRR station in Hall, which has had several buildings built onto the back side of it. That was cool to see... I also wondered the following... When Conrail assumed this line and decided to abandon a large portion, why did they not keep it extended at least to Hall? It seems to me that there are today way more agricultural related companies in Hall that could utilize rail service then there were/are in Bellona where they decided to end the track and abandon the rest to the north... Any information is appreciated.

BWP

I can't provide specific info on this line segment. But generally speaking, it's not a case of who "could" use the line, it's who DOES use the line. If there was little or no traffic actually moving to some location, that was taken into account when evaluating its survival. There was little sense in retaining X miles of track, maintaining it, spraying vegetation, carrying the liability risk, and paying taxes on it, just because it went to some company that used to ship or could ship.

Another factor which sometimes entered into a decision on a line segment's survival was some maintenance issue. If there was a rickety trestle needing a lot of repair, a swamp which repeatedly affected the track surface, or some hillside which loved to slide down onto the railroad, the economics of serving Mom & Pop's Lumber beyond that point sometimes just did not make sense.

BR&P wrote:I can't provide specific info on this line segment. But generally speaking, it's not a case of who "could" use the line, it's who DOES use the line. If there was little or no traffic actually moving to some location, that was taken into account when evaluating its survival. There was little sense in retaining X miles of track, maintaining it, spraying vegetation, carrying the liability risk, and paying taxes on it, just because it went to some company that used to ship or could ship.

Another factor which sometimes entered into a decision on a line segment's survival was some maintenance issue. If there was a rickety trestle needing a lot of repair, a swamp which repeatedly affected the track surface, or some hillside which loved to slide down onto the railroad, the economics of serving Mom & Pop's Lumber beyond that point sometimes just did not make sense.

That does make sense... I seem to recall reading that after PRR or Conrail (not sure which RR)cut back from Sodus Bay, the line continued to operate to Seneca Castle into the late 60's/ early 70's At which point it was again abandoned by Conrail and the northern terminus became Bellona and Bellona Station, where there was/is some type of grain/feedmill building.

That being said, the agricultural businesses in Hall today seems pretty expansive, much more so than even in Penn Yan today, which is served by the FGLK on the former PRR branch.

I think BR&P is spot-on. I seem to recall Conrail cutting back the former LV branch between Harford Mills and Moravia in the late '70s, even though there were agribusinesses online. This was probably the case for the former PRR, too. NY's high property taxes may have affected the decision. For example, EL decided to abandon their spur to Lakeville in the early '60s because the property taxes exceeded the gross revenue from the carloads they shipped. Thankfully, the LA&L came into being and saved that ex-Erie line. This also raises another point- not every potential shortline has a savior who comes to the rescue. This may have been the case for the former PRR between Seneca Castle and Bellona.

On a personal note, my paternal grandparents had vacation property near Penn Yan from 1935 to '88 and I was living in Hammondsport from 1976 to '91. We took scenic rides through the Finger Lakes, and I don't recall the agribusinesses being as prolific in/near Penn Yan as they are now. The carload potential probably wasn't very good north of Penn Yan in the '70s.

Finally, the Penn Central debacle left a bad taste in the mouths of farmers and agribusinesses who had shipped by rail. PC lost track of an entire train near Syracuse for 10 days in 1968, which led to a potato shipment rotting before it could reach its destination. Adding in deferred maintenance and flood damage (especially Agnes in 1972), I can see why they'd be hesitant to ship by rail. Conrail compounded the problem due to their general disinterest in developing local traffic.

Don't get me wrong- I'd love to see more freight business moving by rail. Unfortunately, the FGLK's revival of the Geneva cluster came after decades of neglect on the Elmira Branch from PC and CR... so that's why FGLK (last I knew) goes to Penn Yan just once per week.

Some information:

Penn Central abandoned the Sodus Bay line, Newark-Seneca Castle, 12.0 miles, in 1973. This track was dismantled in 1977.

Seneca Castle-Hall, 7.4 miles, was abandoned in 1979.

Bellona-Hall, 4.0 miles, was abandoned in 1982.

Bellona to Seneca castle was operated under the NYS LDL subsidy program which paid out $126,927.00 in 1977 for the line.

There was a large LP dealer in Bellona served by the railroad.

I was about to post the same, Bellona Station to Seneca Castle was run under subsidy, it shows as such on early Conrail system maps. Drove through Seneca Castle once, looks like another ag customer there.

Must not have been enough for a shortline, or each customer quit rail service. I'm sure that after PC the track was in terrible shape, too.

The FSP shows 1974 carloads as follows: Bellona 335, Hall 76, Seneca Castle 80, and Stanley 51. There was also discussion of serving Rushville from this line, connecting at Stanley. But there were "only" 255 cars, or 32 cars per mile on that segment in its last year of operation and given the cost of the Bellona to Stanley segment, that idea was not pursued.

BR&P wrote:The FSP shows 1974 carloads as follows: Bellona 335, Hall 76, Seneca Castle 80, and Stanley 51. There was also discussion of serving Rushville from this line, connecting at Stanley. But there were "only" 255 cars, or 32 cars per mile on that segment in its last year of operation and given the cost of the Bellona to Stanley segment, that idea was not pursued.

how many cars do you need in order to serve? Compare with # of cars u had deliver in Victor?

sd80mac wrote:how many cars do you need in order to serve? Compare with # of cars u had deliver in Victor?

There is a lot of "it depends" in the answer. At one time a general rule of thumb for some shortline operators was 10 cars per mile annually. Things are different today - there are more regulations, compliance and paperwork to deal with. The connection Class I may (or may not) allow a smaller share of the revenue, or if the shortline is quoting its own share the Class I might in some cases offer a more competitive option for a car loaded nearby on its own rails. Another factor would be the type of terrain a line segment runs through - a line on more or less level ground in a fairly dry area would probably require less money to maintain than a line with numerous bridges, or with parallel rivers which might flood and eat away the roadbed.

The 13-mile Ontario Central Railroad survived several years with traffic counts below 120 cars. However, this did NOT address long-term maintenance needs like tie replacement, surfacing, locomotive wheel replacement, etc. You can defer things like that but sooner or later they must be dealt with, and in most cases it's going to take quite a bit more than 10 cars per mile to be viable in the long term.

It's even more complex than that, but let's just say there is a lot of planning, budgeting and analysis needed to evaluate the potential of any give line, and there is a long list of factors which must be considered.

BR&P... thanks

Ken, one other thing re: using ONCT as an example. In that case, the county owned the right of way and infrastructure, and the railroad paid no property tax nor payment in lieu of taxes. And since one of the customers donated the use of the building for an engine house, and also offered support in office functions and access to their machine shop for maintenance, the line was able to survive on less traffic than another line would have required if they had to pay for those items.

BR&P wrote:The FSP shows 1974 carloads as follows: Bellona 335, Hall 76, Seneca Castle 80, and Stanley 51. There was also discussion of serving Rushville from this line, connecting at Stanley. But there were "only" 255 cars, or 32 cars per mile on that segment in its last year of operation and given the cost of the Bellona to Stanley segment, that idea was not pursued.

The LV segment to Rushville was embargoed in 1973, so the cost to rehab the line probably factored into the decision to not revive it.

Matt Langworthy wrote:
The LV segment to Rushville was embargoed in 1973, so the cost to rehab the line probably factored into the decision to not revive it.

Here's how it was worded in the FSP:

"The New York DOT suggested that the Association investigate the possibility of serving Comstock Foods at Rushville (Line No. 1001) from this line (referring to the PRR line we're discussing in this thread) at Stanley. The traffic level on the involved 8 miles of Line 1001 in 1971 (the latest full year of operation) was 255 carloads or 32 carloads per mile. Due to the low traffic level and the loss on this line from Bellona to Stanley, this analysis was not undertaken.

So it seems that because the PRR segment in and of itself was not considered viable, they did not investigate whether the additional traffic at Rushville would have made a positive contribution.

All that is actually a long time ago now. Whether some of that would have survived a while if made into a shortline is open for discussion. However, bear in mind that Comstock is long gone which would have killed the Rushville part. Further, in 1995 the Penn Yan segment was taken over by Finger Lakes Ry, who had a more aggressive approach to small customers than Conrail did. Even with their economies, there is nothing north of PY being served now. So USRA may have made the right call way back in the early 70's after all.

I suspect a non-union shortline running two-man crews might have been able to make it go with subsidies to bring the track up to shape. Perhaps give them Phelps Jct. to Himrod Jct. with the line to Rushville. That would give it a fairly decent traffic base and two possible interchange points.

lvrr325 wrote:I suspect a non-union shortline running two-man crews might have been able to make it go with subsidies to bring the track up to shape. Perhaps give them Phelps Jct. to Himrod Jct. with the line to Rushville. That would give it a fairly decent traffic base and two possible interchange points.

What RR's interchanged at Phelps Junction? Back in that day at least...