Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

  by FRN9
 
Here's an idea:

What about bringing PATH service beyond EWR to Staten Island to connect to the SIRR system--perhaps even replace SIRR with PATH?
  by Jeff Smith
 
Split from EWR topic.
  by Hawaiitiki
 
I like the idea of it all. Seems to make just as much sense if not more than the HBLR due to possible system interchangeability. The new Goethals, as someone mentioned in the other forum, is being built with a provision for Mass-Transit.

On the SI side of the Arthur Kill, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch a connect the future Goethals bridge to the old North Shore line and terming at the St. George's Ferry terminal with the PA possibly assuming control of both systems. (SI PATH and SIRR).

I just don't see a non-multibillion dollar idea of getting the PATH to the Goethals from the EWR Rail Station. Wrapping around the South/Southwest Side of EWR then running along some sort of raised medium above the Turnpike(ala JFK airtrain) seems like one of the few "reasonable" ways.
  by FRN9
 
Hawaiitiki wrote:I like the idea of it all. Seems to make just as much sense if not more than the HBLR due to possible system interchangeability. The new Goethals, as someone mentioned in the other forum, is being built with a provision for Mass-Transit.

On the SI side of the Arthur Kill, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch a connect the future Goethals bridge to the old North Shore line and terming at the St. George's Ferry terminal with the PA possibly assuming control of both systems. (SI PATH and SIRR).

I just don't see a non-multibillion dollar idea of getting the PATH to the Goethals from the EWR Rail Station. Wrapping around the South/Southwest Side of EWR then running along some sort of raised medium above the Turnpike(ala JFK airtrain) seems like one of the few "reasonable" ways.
Why not simply replace the SIRR with the PATH once their joined? Perhaps the MTA could take over running the PATH as part of the deal. It seems inefficient to have MTA running all of the subways and the port authority just running PATH. Subsidies can be worked out.

I think the best route would be:

1. St. George connection to SIR (becomes one system)
- Tunnel down to cross over to Bayonne
2. Underground stop at 8th Street HBLR station for transfer
- Continue in tunnel under Newark Bay
- Tunnel under Newark Airport
3. IKEA/SHOPPING CENTER (economic development on the other side of Turnpike)
4. Terminal A/B Station (people movers between terminals and rail station, like at Heathrow 123 station)
5. Terminal C Station / Car rental (again people movers underground)
6. Join Northeast Corridor at EWR airport rail station. Opportunity for NJT and AMT passengers to transfer to PATH towards airport stations or Staten Island.
7. Newark Train Station
8. Rest of PATH system.

This is obviously ambitious. But plans for EWR expansion involve rebuilding terminals to make room for another runway. So in that context, much could be achieved.

I've attached a map.

I revised this message to include the Ikea stop.
  by Adirondacker
 
FRN9 wrote:


- Tunnel down to cross over to Bayonne

- Continue in tunnel under Newark Bay
- Tunnel under Newark Airport
Unless Bill Gates gets a hankering to blow ten billion it's not going to be done. There aren't a whole lot of people in Newark who have a hankering to go to St George and even less people in Staten Island who want to see the bright lights in Newark. They get on trains, buses and ferries to get to Manhattan. Taking the ferry from Staten Island would be faster.

And you'd need a tunnel under Bayonne. People get really really annoyed when you try to lay tracks down the middle of their street.
  by FRN9
 
Adirondacker wrote:
FRN9 wrote:


- Tunnel down to cross over to Bayonne

- Continue in tunnel under Newark Bay
- Tunnel under Newark Airport
Unless Bill Gates gets a hankering to blow ten billion it's not going to be done. There aren't a whole lot of people in Newark who have a hankering to go to St George and even less people in Staten Island who want to see the bright lights in Newark. They get on trains, buses and ferries to get to Manhattan. Taking the ferry from Staten Island would be faster.

And you'd need a tunnel under Bayonne. People get really really annoyed when you try to lay tracks down the middle of their street.
The PATH service can come up in the industrial area on the waterfront and travel under Newark Bay and then travel onto the airport and NE corridor. The HBLR could be extended with the PATH and continue along the former CNJ ROW to Aldene, where it would connect with the RVL with a stop in Elizabeth to connect to the Northeast Corridor.
  by Hawaiitiki
 
FRN9 wrote:
Adirondacker wrote:
FRN9 wrote:


- Tunnel down to cross over to Bayonne

- Continue in tunnel under Newark Bay
- Tunnel under Newark Airport
Unless Bill Gates gets a hankering to blow ten billion it's not going to be done. There aren't a whole lot of people in Newark who have a hankering to go to St George and even less people in Staten Island who want to see the bright lights in Newark. They get on trains, buses and ferries to get to Manhattan. Taking the ferry from Staten Island would be faster.

And you'd need a tunnel under Bayonne. People get really really annoyed when you try to lay tracks down the middle of their street.
The PATH service can come up in the industrial area on the waterfront and travel under Newark Bay and then travel onto the airport and NE corridor. The HBLR could be extended with the PATH and continue along the former CNJ ROW to Aldene, where it would connect with the RVL with a stop in Elizabeth to connect to the Northeast Corridor.
They will not be able to find this kind of investment without including 75% of the North Shore of SI and Elizabeth. And tunneling? I don't think that is ever going to be in the cards in any capacity.
  by Adirondacker
 
FRN9 wrote: The PATH service can come up in the industrial area on the waterfront and travel under Newark Bay and then travel onto the airport and NE corridor. The HBLR could be extended with the PATH and continue along the former CNJ ROW to Aldene, where it would connect with the RVL with a stop in Elizabeth to connect to the Northeast Corridor.
Normal people don't get chills up and down their spine when they see a train. They want to get from where they are to where they want to go. It takes 22 minutes to get from Newark to the World Trade Center and 25 minutes to get from St. George to Whitehall Street on the ferry. How long is it going to take to get from St. George to Newark? How many people are going to be willing to waste that much time just so they don't have to get on a boat?
  by 25Hz
 
I say no.

The function of PATH is TRANS HUDSON, not "EVERYWHERE needs to go to WTC OH EMM GEE"!

HBLR across bayonne bridge, will it even work once the road deck is raised?

SIRR north shore line should be a priority for MTA. As i stated elsewhere it may need to run on a new ROW.

Also, if HBLR is going to run across bayonne bridge, i don't think it should run to elizabeth, i think it should intersect with SIRR, and have SIRR run between st george and elizabeth.

Ironically enough, people keep talking in the public light about the asinine, impractical, boondoggle, brain-dead 7 extension to secaucus, while totally ignoring the ONE practical link between MTA territory and NJ in the SIRR north shore line. West of hudson service doesn't count, as none of those services go to or from NYC (and probably never will).

Having such a link to the NEC would also put yet another alternative route in place in the event of some unforeseen or planned unavailability of service anywhere east of elizabeth.
  by FRN9
 
25Hz wrote:I say no.

The function of PATH is TRANS HUDSON, not "EVERYWHERE needs to go to WTC OH EMM GEE"!

HBLR across bayonne bridge, will it even work once the road deck is raised?

SIRR north shore line should be a priority for MTA. As i stated elsewhere it may need to run on a new ROW.

Also, if HBLR is going to run across bayonne bridge, i don't think it should run to elizabeth, i think it should intersect with SIRR, and have SIRR run between st george and elizabeth.

Ironically enough, people keep talking in the public light about the asinine, impractical, boondoggle, brain-dead 7 extension to secaucus, while totally ignoring the ONE practical link between MTA territory and NJ in the SIRR north shore line. West of hudson service doesn't count, as none of those services go to or from NYC (and probably never will).

Having such a link to the NEC would also put yet another alternative route in place in the event of some unforeseen or planned unavailability of service anywhere east of elizabeth.
Why not put the MTA in charge of PATH (and change the name so its not Trans Hudson) and have it subsidized? The PATH cars could replace the SIRR cars and you'd have a unified system into Manhattan from Staten Island. This seems much easier, in terms of ROW and bridge/tunnel R train extension to Staten Island (with a connection to the SIRR). The PATH5 cars are very similar to NYC subway cars, so it should be pretty easy to run them along the SIRR line. Also, it could be possible to replace those cars with faster models that travel at 75-85MPH (instead of 55MPH), which is the speed of the Washington, DC subway cars. This would allow for faster trips into Manhattan. Express service (with limited stops) inside SI could be introduced.

HBLR could connect with PATH in Bayonne and at Ikea stop (which could become much more developed with direct service to Manhattan, HBLR and Staten Island).

Manhattan and Staten Island would get a one-seat-ride to Newark.

The Port Authority would get rid of the expense and headache of running a subway system and there would be economies of scale in having it run by the MTA.

The residents along the former CNJ ROW and passengers on the RVL (with transfer stop at Aldene) could gain access to the HBLR network (and EWR with easy transfer).
  by SemperFidelis
 
I'm not sure if any of these proposals are considering running PATH and MTA cars side by side, but PATH cars are FRA compliant and (I believe) would not be compatible with subway cars due to the crash worthiness requirements.

The nice thing about PATH operating under FRA rules is that system expansion should, in theory, be much easier as the cars would be able to coexist with freight operations without requiring temporal segregation.
  by Adirondacker
 
FRN9 wrote: Manhattan and Staten Island would get a one-seat-ride to Newark.
Um Um um PATH already goes to Newark. It has for over a century.

People in Staten Island who want to get to Manhattan take the quickest way not the way that connects a bunch of dots on a map.
  by FRN9
 
SemperFidelis wrote:I'm not sure if any of these proposals are considering running PATH and MTA cars side by side, but PATH cars are FRA compliant and (I believe) would not be compatible with subway cars due to the crash worthiness requirements.

The nice thing about PATH operating under FRA rules is that system expansion should, in theory, be much easier as the cars would be able to coexist with freight operations without requiring temporal segregation.
The PATH5 cars would be used exclusively on the SIR line with this idea, so they wouldn't be mixed up together with subway cars.

I was using Newark to refer to the airport rather than the city, but I should have been more clear.
  by Adirondacker
 
FRN9 wrote:
SemperFidelis wrote:I'm not sure if any of these proposals are considering running PATH and MTA cars side by side, but PATH cars are FRA compliant and (I believe) would not be compatible with subway cars due to the crash worthiness requirements.

The nice thing about PATH operating under FRA rules is that system expansion should, in theory, be much easier as the cars would be able to coexist with freight operations without requiring temporal segregation.
The PATH5 cars would be used exclusively on the SIR line with this idea, so they wouldn't be mixed up together with subway cars.

I was using Newark to refer to the airport rather than the city, but I should have been more clear.
The PATH cars aren't going to be used exclusively on the SIR because no one is going to spend the billions of dollars it would take to build new tracks, a bridge or a tunnel and rebuild all the SIR stations so PATH trains could use them.
  by FRN9
 
Adirondacker wrote:
FRN9 wrote:
SemperFidelis wrote:I'm not sure if any of these proposals are considering running PATH and MTA cars side by side, but PATH cars are FRA compliant and (I believe) would not be compatible with subway cars due to the crash worthiness requirements.

The nice thing about PATH operating under FRA rules is that system expansion should, in theory, be much easier as the cars would be able to coexist with freight operations without requiring temporal segregation.
The PATH5 cars would be used exclusively on the SIR line with this idea, so they wouldn't be mixed up together with subway cars.

I was using Newark to refer to the airport rather than the city, but I should have been more clear.
The PATH cars aren't going to be used exclusively on the SIR because no one is going to spend the billions of dollars it would take to build new tracks, a bridge or a tunnel and rebuild all the SIR stations so PATH trains could use them.
This is true. I agree. But it would be the cheapest possible subway connection to Staten Island that integrates the SIR--cheaper than the R train extension idea with a tunnel under the narrows and creating a new ROW to St. George. This was proposed by the former head of the MTA, Joe Lhota, so its not such a far out there idea.