• Owego & Harford in SAYRE - Lehigh Railway

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

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  by scottychaos
 
(Yes, I know the Lehigh Secondary is in PA, not NY..but from a railfan perspective, this is very much a NY story, and relates directly to the Southern Tier main in NY.. which is why im deliberately putting this thread in the NY forum..please dont move it! :)

I first heard this rumour via a PM a few months ago, and I promised then not to repeat it..
but now that it has been posted on another forum, I think its now safe to talk about it! ;)

The story states that the Owego & Harford, currently a tiny shortline based in Owego, NY,
is going to take over the NS Lehigh Secondary from Sayre, PA south to Mahoopany, where NS currently hands off to the R&N..
this is the former Lehigh Valley Mainline south out of Sayre.

This should be classed in the Rumour catagory for now..but the guy who posed it over here:

http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?bo ... 1220643818

seems quite credible and seems to be well plugged into "people in the know" at NS..
so its clearly based on something real..

I dont really understand the O&H angle though..
seems the R&N would be the much more likely canidate to take over this line,
since they already run the south portion, and they are already based in PA,
and they are MUCH larger than the O&H and already have the motive power to run the line right now..
O&H does not..O&H doesnt even own any road diesels at this point..

I can easily imagne the R&N running all the way up to Sayre..but the O&H makes much less sense..

IF this happened the O&H would interchange with NS at Sayre, and with R&N at Mahoopany..

no mention of the line to Ithaca..(LV main north out of Sayre)
probably NS would keep the Sayre yard proper, north of the passenger station, and keep the line to Ithaca..
and whichever shortline takes over the Lehigh Secondary south of Sayre would run only to the area of the Sayre station..
the old LV locomotive terminal area..but not north of there into the northern part of the Sayre yard..
that would be my guess anyway..

interesting things possibly in the works for Sayre!!

Scot

(p.s. its Owego & Harford..not Owego & Hartford..no "t" in the name..)
Last edited by scottychaos on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by johnpbarlow
 
"...I dont really understand the O&H angle though..
seems the R&N would be the much more likely canidate to take over this line,
since they already run the south portion, and they are already based in PA,
and they are MUCH larger than the O&H and already have the motive power to run the line right now..
O&H does not..O&H doesnt even own any road diesels at this point..."

At the risk of rumor-mongering, is there any mention that the O&H might get trackage rights over NS between Owego and Sayre and move its ex-Auburn branch interchange from Owego to Sayre? I thought I had heard the O&H picked up a new customer that is associated with the natural gas drilling initiative going on in the Southern Tier.
  by K4Pacific
 
I'll get an update on the O&H regarding Lehigh Line. The proposal is only Sayre to Mahoopany. NS continues it's operations Sayre to Ludlowville/Lansing for coal and salt - which gross's approximately $8 million a year.

As far as OG (Owego) - NS is running out of room in Owego to interchange cars there. With the number of scrap and and gas cars - it can't hold 40+ cars. So I asked about shoving past Goodrich Settlement and NS said it's not a safe reverse move and the bridge has no walkway and the embankment is too steep. He wouldn't allow it.

The NS Elmira to Sayre daily turn which leaves Elmira at around 1300 to 1400 will interchange at Sayre.

More on that when I get a response on Tuesday (tomorrow).
  by lvrr325
 
Doesn't make a lot of sense, but applying logic to railroad decisions is like applying logic to politics.

On the other hand, R&N can already interchange with NS, they'd almost have no reason to run into Sayre unless they get rights to serve GE Railcar. Giving it to someone else creates a railroad with interchanges on both ends, and thus keeps the whole thing in regular service.

I've never understood why NS didn't just use this line instead of rights on the D&H, supposedly in the early 90s when NS made a takeover bid for Conrail they had welded rail trains staged to drop rail to bring this line up to better standards and use it instead of the east end of the TIer. At least that was per someone I know that lives in Sayre and talked to the train crews.

If O&H gets the line, NS may include some power to run it, if not, it's not that hard to find some rent-a-wrecks or buy some surplus power. Even MRL, IAIS, and RJ Corman are looking at new GE or EMD units, so surplus SD40-2 or SD50s should be readily available.


It's too bad they can't get the line up through Ithaca with it. I think the line up along the lake would be the single best excursion line in the state from a scenic standpoint, in addition to the coal and salt traffic. But you almost have to have ridden it to know.
  by K4Pacific
 
I told you I'd have an update. I know you'll want more, but this is all I could garner today. According to officials handling the arrangement, November 1st is now pushed to January 1st, 2009 and according to one official, "the infrastructure to make it happen are in place, but how the trigger will be pulled and when are still up in the air at this time."
  by Alcoman
 
[quote="lvrr325"]Doesn't make a lot of sense, but applying logic to railroad decisions is like applying logic to politics.


"If O&H gets the line, NS may include some power to run it, if not, it's not that hard to find some rent-a-wrecks or buy some surplus power. Even MRL, IAIS, and RJ Corman are looking at new GE or EMD units, so surplus SD40-2 or SD50s should be readily available."


They are looking for more Alco Power i.e. C420's. RS-18's, RS-11's,C424's, etc.
  by lvrr325
 
That reminds me I know someone I might be able to ask about that deal. When I see him I'll ask if he has any comment. But if he's involved, I don't see them getting more Alcos.

I'd think around 4 or 5 units would do it - 2 to 3 for road trains, the others as spares that can also do dedicated switching as needed, or be added for heavier trains. Anyone have that many good Alcos laying around surplus?
  by Alcoman
 
lvrr325 wrote:That reminds me I know someone I might be able to ask about that deal. When I see him I'll ask if he has any comment. But if he's involved, I don't see them getting more Alcos.

I'd think around 4 or 5 units would do it - 2 to 3 for road trains, the others as spares that can also do dedicated switching as needed, or be added for heavier trains. Anyone have that many good Alcos laying around surplus?
While finding 8 good Alcos would be a stretch, I did get that info from the President himself. One could guess that EMD's will have to be included.
  by sallenparks
 
Hey guys what about the LR&W C420's or Ohio Centrals Alco's.Alcoman what about O&H's RS18 1850 or is she to far gone.Just thought I'd throw those out or come to think of it what about LSRC C425m's.You can get 8 Alco's easy if you have the money.
  by lvrr325
 
That's a good point, with G&W buying the Ohio Central you can expect them to dump the Alcos pretty fast. I've forgotten just what they have - a couple of ex-CN widecabs, a T6, and an RS3?
  by Alcoman
 
sallenparks wrote:Hey guys what about the LR&W C420's or Ohio Centrals Alco's.Alcoman what about O&H's RS18 1850 or is she to far gone.Just thought I'd throw those out or come to think of it what about LSRC C425m's.You can get 8 Alco's easy if you have the money.
The O&H RS-18 is for sale....$75,000 minus some parts. The Ohio Central Alcos range from $65,000 to 75,000 each.
  by K4Pacific
 
Amazingly 43 cars (mostly empty gons) were lined up in Elmira Yard track 1 for Owego's Weitzman's Thursday. There is not enough capacity at OG to handle them. But they do get them in there some how.
  by nydepot
 
Not to hijack the thread but I haven't been able to find confirmation: Did the G&W end up with the OC diesels? The press releases, news articles, even Trains Magazine mentions all kinds of stuff but not motive power. I expected Trains to says something like "...and an additional X diesels to the G&W family."

Thanks.

Charles
lvrr325 wrote:That's a good point, with G&W buying the Ohio Central you can expect them to dump the Alcos pretty fast. I've forgotten just what they have - a couple of ex-CN widecabs, a T6, and an RS3?
  by Alcoman
 
lvrr325 wrote:That's a good point, with G&W buying the Ohio Central you can expect them to dump the Alcos pretty fast. I've forgotten just what they have - a couple of ex-CN widecabs, a T6, and an RS3?
[/quote]

The OC Alcos ARE FOR SALE. Just call them and ask for Jerry Bozeman.CMO
  by scottychaos
 
This was just posted on the PA forum:
johnpbarlow wrote:Here's the URL to the STB filing for Lehigh Railway, a non-carrier entity headquartered at the same location as the Owego and Harford Railway in Owego, NY, to lease and operate NS' ex-LV main between Athens and Mehoopany, PA. LRWY will have rights into Sayre for interchange with NS. It also looks like LRWY could interchange with RBMN at Mehoopany.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 223871.PDF

Here's a 2nd part of the filing with more details:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 223872.PDF

Looks like a 10 year lease term with no option to buy. Track to be maintained for Class III 25mph operation with < 10% slow ordered. Line currently is handling 2,080 carloads per year on average. There is confusing language re: NS & D&H and the Southern Tier haulage agreement and its potential impact on the lease. I think there's even a suggestion that LRWY gets $300 lease credits for handling overhead NS traffic that doesn't terminate between Athens and Mehoopany or on the The Monroeton Shippers' Lifeline.
I was interested to see "between Athens and Mehoopany, PA."..
"athens"..not sayre..
which confirms my suspicion that NS will basically keep the entire Sayre yard, and the interchange between this new railroad and NS will be right around the Sayre passenger station, or just to the south (RR east) of it...probably the small yard just to the south of the Packer ave bridge..

Scot
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