Orange Interlocking on M&E

Anyone know what the old Orange interlocking looked like before it was taken out? What moves could be made? Did it comprise of 15MPH, 30, or 45 MPH switches?

When was it removed from service?

Butler -

Sure, remember them well....located between Orange and Brick Church stations....tip-off to their one-time existance are the two unique ( wide ) catenary structures still in place.

Twas 2 identical high-speed switches ( in DL&W days, probably 35-40 mph ) parallel to each pther....one from track #3 ( primary westbound main ) to track #1 ( center track ) and the other from track #1 to track #2.

Possible Moves:

1) A westbound on track #3 could crossover to track #1 westbound.

2) An eastbound on track #2 could crossover to track #1 eastbound.

My guess is these switch plants received regular use when Brick Church was a major station stop on the Lackawanna - i.e., The Phoebe Snow.

AIR, track #1 ( center track ) was the only one cleared/signaled for bi-directional running ( rule 261 ) which I believe continues to be the case today under NJT.

Tom -

your hypothesis is a good one, as Brick received a lot of baggage activity, and the Orange freight yard, beer switch, John Alden coal, etc generated a lot of switching activity. Being able to route the eastbound local around the congestion and still make a stop at Brick would definitely be an advantage.

DL&W DS tended to use their crossovers pretty effectively

Paul

Paul -

Much to my regret, I never witnessed these high-speed crossovers in use. I do recall them both being 'polished' as I gazed out my MU window in commute right up I think to the early-mid 1970's. I presume they were torn-out with the 1984 re-electrification project.

Eastbound on track #2....was the reverse switch siding w/coal dock ( still survives ) just past Orange station the one for John Alden Coal ?

The next client eastbond AIR was the reverse switch/long siding for Rheingold's brewery, yes ? Recall seeing covered hoppers off-loading there thru about 1980 or so....and also that siding being kept in top-top shape with new ties/grooming. When exactly did Rheingold close ?

Beyond Brick Church station eastbound, I think that was it for sidings/customers till the yard just before Newark-Broad station.

Westbound off track #3 there were 3-4 elevated sidings w/reverse switches between East Orange station and Orange station....one with a wooden canopied high platform. Any recall on what/who those customers were ?

In 2004, much remains of these one-time busy freight sidings....with rail remnants still in place for some.

Sheppard prob has names of these sidings if they existed circa 1974, which I believe they did. I'll check.

I believe there was also a freight siding between the Grove Street station and the beginning of the cut. reverse facing off the eastbound local track. About where the Fire House is now.

Thanks,

So it was just a pair of crossovers? Did it include a facing point turnout to what is now Orange Yard between Orange and Highland Avenue stations?

BS

Tri-State Tom wrote:Butler -

Sure, remember them well....located between Orange and Brick Church stations....tip-off to their one-time existance are the two unique ( wide ) catenary structures still in place.

Twas 2 identical high-speed switches ( in DL&W days, probably 35-40 mph ) parallel to each pther....one from track #3 ( primary westbound main ) to track #1 ( center track ) and the other from track #1 to track #2.

Possible Moves:

1) A westbound on track #3 could crossover to track #1 westbound.

2) An eastbound on track #2 could crossover to track #1 eastbound.

My guess is these switch plants received regular use when Brick Church was a major station stop on the Lackawanna - i.e., The Phoebe Snow.

AIR, track #1 ( center track ) was the only one cleared/signaled for bi-directional running ( rule 261 ) which I believe continues to be the case today under NJT.

"Being able to route the eastbound local around the congestion and still make a stop at Brick would definitely be an advantage."

Huh? You said they were left-hand crossovers.

There must have been some power switches west of the Orange station?

timz - ( & Butler )

My fault for your confusion on that I guess....see Butler's post right above your's that references my original answer to him.

Paul ( 484 ) is correct.

If say a local MU set was stopped on track #2 eastbound at Brick Church station, or a local drill freight was occupying track #2 in that area, a trailing eastbound train also on track #2 could be routed/take the high-speed switch at 'Orange' interlocking FROM track #2 TO track #1 and proceed east.

Hope that's clearer.

" There must have been some power switches west of the Orange station? "

Good question.

AIR, Tabor's book has a photo looking west at Orange station ( photographer standing on the eastbound platform ) of an eastbound MU set coming around the bend on track #2. I think the photo partially shows a switch from track #3 to track #1 but I'll have to check that. Also visible in this pic is the reverse switch off track #2 to the siding where a Railway Express looking mail/baggage car is spotted just under/adjacent to the old Orange tower. The curved concrete extended eastbound platform at Orange is still in place in 2004 and clues the one-time existance of that siding.

If I interpret your question correctly, you're asking how a westbound local drill got routed from either track #3 or track #1 over on to track #2 if his destination was Orange yard around the bend and below the main ROW. I'll have to defer to 484 or others on that as I can't recall with certainty.

BTW, as an aside/somewhat related note, that pic via Tabor shows a combo signal bridge/catenary structure in place just west of Orange station. While that cat structure remains in place today, NJT long ago relocated the signals from here to another cat structure just to the east of the station.

And don't forget the diagrams at http://raildata.railfan.net/dlw/dlwhome.html

They look right to you guys?

Paul -

" Sheppard prob has names of these sidings if they existed circa 1974, which I believe they did. I'll check. "

Dunno Paul, that may be close....I think some may have already gone OOS/severed by then. Remember, this is when ( late 60's-early 70's ) the towns/economies of Orange and East Orange really started their slides into what we see nowadays.

" I believe there was also a freight siding between the Grove Street station and the beginning of the cut. reverse facing off the eastbound local track. About where the Fire House is now. "

Know where you mean but clueless on that one.

BTW, just recalled the existance of another siding off track #3....just west of Orange station....a reverse switch siding curving off into a one-time customer possibly fronting on Essex Ave.. While long gone, the siding ROW is still apparant today.

timz -

" They look right to you guys? "

Frankly, no tim. I've accessed that resource several times in the past and found some errors on the old Montclair Branch depictions ( sidings, signal locations ). But the author certainly made a valiant effort. It's tough to gather all the historical info accurately and interpret/depict all the detail in drawings which are obviously not to scale.

Having said that, this is indicated as circa 1950. My general frame of reference/awareness is post 1960 or so. Obviously, the E-L could have made changes 'from/to' in the 10-year gap between 1950 to 1960 that would account for some discrepancies.

Working east to west, with Sheppard circa 1974

Crossovers at the west end of Roseville platform, which allowed a wb local to move to express, and an other set which allowed a westbound express to move to local. This switch set is sorta surprising because anybody who stopped at Newark would be on #3, and the major reason for this would be to avoid a Montclair branch turn out. There's a mirror image at Roseville allowing an eb local to go to the express track and bypass Newark. Its companion is the Montclair to 3-1-2 switch

No siding track at Ward Pla, Greenwood Ave by Grove Street Sta

Between EO and Brick, there's a two track siding off the westbound. Sheppard shows a facing on the east, with an immediate hand throw to two siding tracks. Both connect back to 3 track (wb local) at the east end of the Brick platform. The facing switch is above Burnet street.

Crossovers between Brick and Orange, from 3 (wb local) to 1 (express) to 2(eb local), and on to the siding for the coal dealer. The coal dealer had a reverse facing switch at the east end, a direct switch at the west end AND a switch about a third of the way east. Sheppard calls it Orange Fuel, I remember it as John Duffy and Alden Coal. The intermediate switch is about over S. Day Street.

This switch enabled a wb local to move to the express track, or an eb local to move to the express track. It would also allow an express to move to the "wrong" main east or west.

The Rheingold lead is off the eb track, about 500 feet west of the Brick station, and east of the coal lead. Sheppard shows it as dead ended at the compass west end, but near the east end of the coal track.

On the westbound track, between Hickory Street and Center street is a siding with a reverse facing switch. There's no place to stash the pull-out cars, which is sorta surprising.

West of Orange, Sheppard doesn't show the REA track, which I recall continued off the eb from the area of I-280, along the long platform, and connected back to the main at the station proper. he does show the tail track coming west out or Orange yard. I believe the state built a special bridge over 280 to accomodate this track.

There's a very short siding off the wb over Cory St (just west of 280?) which looks to be about three car lengths. It connects with the wb at both ends.

...part of those Roseville Ave crossover west of the station for me was when riding the last car of the 13 car 5:30 Hoboken departure (one time "TOM TABER EXPRESS). After Newark the first stop was Chatham or Short Hills, or something well up the line, so train crossed 3 to 1 at the Roseville Ave crossover at timetable speed of 25 or 30 on the turnout. However the engineer accellerated (had to to get up the hill) so that the last car whipped across at about 50 or better! What a ride! Wanna do it agian!

Paul -

" There's a mirror image at Roseville allowing an eb local to go to the express track and bypass Newark. "

Circa 1974 thru say 1976, my recall is this one was used sparingly....often was the least polished day to day. BTW, I believe this one was removed with the reconfiguration of the junction 3-4 years ago, yes ?

" Crossovers between Brick and Orange, from 3 (wb local) to 1 (express) to 2(eb local)...."

Sounds like there was a '3rd switch' there Paul....news to me....I only recall the high-speed parallel pair as indicated up top here.

" On the westbound track, between Hickory Street and Center street is a siding with a reverse facing switch. There's no place to stash the pull-out cars, which is sorta surprising. "

Hmm....guess the local drill would have had to foul main track #3 for a time there.

BTW, is Sheppard available on-line anywhere ?

henry -

Know/recall the identical experience....loved that whip riding in the last car !

Ya knew it was comin' there if you were running a bit late !