OnTrack - big money loser

Ironically, just as the money is finally available to complete the Park St. bridge and extend OnTrack to the Regional Transportation Center and P&C Stadium, along comes this:

Tax breaks cost at least $180,000 more each year
http://www.syracuse.com/search/index.ss ... ?syrneocit

The gist of the article is that NYSW is getting over $180,000 in tax breaks to run OnTrack, but the line is attracting only 30 riders per day. One wonders how much more successful the line would have been during the past five years if the bridge was completed and the connection made to the bus and train station. Or if shuttle trains could have been run to bring ballgame patrons to Armory Square for dinner before catching a game.

Given the serious deficits affecting the city, county and state, and the fact that Michael Bragman is out of politics, it's only a matter of time before OnTrack is history and the $1.9 million to complete the bridge is used to fill a budget gap somewhere else. Get your pictures of the Budd RDC's before it's too late.

Jim D.

Just about all forms of public transit see some form of public subsidy.

All passenger trains are subsidized... if the city wants to commit to this commuter shuttle, they will continue to invest in the train once the bridge is complete. If not, NYSW will just be in the occasional excursion business...

-otto-

As an upstate New Yorker and long-time DL&W fan, I hate to say it but OnTrack was never a good idea. Syracuse is too small and too well served by highways (which of course slashed through downtown -- but that's a lost battle by now), parking garages etc. Far more cost effective to set up some buslanes or priority stoplights for express buses. The Carrier Dome problems at SU games can be solved by fleets of busses and dedicated streets. This is not a good use of taxpayer money nor a good advertisement for commuter rail where it is really neeeded, e.g. NY Metro area, or in NJ where they are chocking on traffic.

Just bear in mind that most transit agencies receive about 1/3 of their revenue from fares and 2/3's from public subsidy. OnTrack doesn't seem to be too far from that figure.

Probably the best thing they could do is have the DO get out of the public transit business and assimilate OnTrack into the CNYTA where it could be integrated into the public transit system, be eligible for FTA funds and have better adverstising.

Of course OnTrack is a moneyloser. It is the classic tale of a commuter rail service that starts nowehere, wanders through the city and then ends just short of somewhere.

The southermost platform, near the university, would require students actually to walk to reach it. Now, when they have free bus service available, why would they walk to get a train that they then have to pay a $1.50 fare to ride? Those kids didn't get into college without having at least some brains.

It makes a stop at Armory Square, and another one on the south side of the city (with an advance phone call), on the way to Carousel Center. There is no affordable parking near to encourage anyone to "park and ride." Then, to add insult to injury, for those folks who might conceivably want to take OnTrack to make connections with Amtrak or Trailways, this Toonerville Trolley can't get there from here.

If the county wants to see a return on its investment, they would work with NYSW to open up commuter service to Liverpool and Clay, where the population lives. Maybe with $2.00+ per gallon of gasoline, commuters would switch to a reliable and convenient commuter service.

Without giving OnTrack a real purpose, it is little more than a quaint curiosity. It's not as though Syracuse is any tourist destination, at least not at this point in time, to make OnTrack a paying proposition.

Have you ever heard of a government that really expected a return on investment?

There was once service to Jamesville during a period of construction on I-81... but I think it was quickly withdrawn. Probably combination of poor
publicity and the parking factor.

Photograph the RDC's while they last!

-otto-

sodusbay wrote:As an upstate New Yorker and long-time DL&W fan, I hate to say it but OnTrack was never a good idea. Syracuse is too small and too well served by highways (which of course slashed through downtown -- but that's a lost battle by now), parking garages etc. Far more cost effective to set up some buslanes or priority stoplights for express buses. The Carrier Dome problems at SU games can be solved by fleets of busses and dedicated streets. This is not a good use of taxpayer money nor a good advertisement for commuter rail where it is really neeeded, e.g. NY Metro area, or in NJ where they are chocking on traffic.

The Tri-State area gets enought $$ for transit.
There is nothing wrong with Syracuse getting some of it.
You can't compare a bus with a train or even a RDC car. NOT the same!

videobruce wrote:

sodusbay wrote:This is not a good use of taxpayer money nor a good advertisement for commuter rail where it is really neeeded, e.g. NY Metro area, or in NJ where they are chocking on traffic.

There are quite a few trains and routes in NYC that are actually profitable.

What OnTrack needs in order for it to be a success is recognition by the political powers that be that it will never be a profit maker in the debit and credit sense. However, with expansion of service to the Regional Transportation Center and to P&C Stadium, revenues could be expected to increase.

Likewise, providing reliable morning and afternoon commuter service to Liverpool, Salina, and Clay would make sense. For that matter, commuter service over the old DL & W into Baldwinsville ought to be studied. A commuter train (or car) dropping passengers at the RTC and the NYSW station to transfer to a Centro bus (or walk) to the final destination makes a great deal of economic and environmental sense.

As gasoline prices continue to rise, the daily commuter might just find enough economic disincentive to get him or her to stop driving into the city and start taking mass transit. What is needed, however, is reliable service, reasonable fares (an economic incentive), good marketing and political leadership to make it all happen.

Schooltrain wrote:As gasoline prices continue to rise, the daily commuter might just find enough economic disincentive to get him or her to stop driving into the city and start taking mass transit. What is needed, however, is reliable service, reasonable fares (an economic incentive), good marketing and political leadership to make it all happen.

As an employee of our local transit service - I still take my car even though I can ride the bus for free (same for many of the people who work here). Why? Because I value my time over the cost savings.

Taking the bus for me would add 45 minutes to my 30 minute commute by car. Some days yeah - I'd rather let the driver deal with the traffic problems - but I do value my time.

Don't get me wrong, we have a very good transit system in place - and it works great for those who live in or near the city. But I live out in the boonies and they're not going to run an express bus for the dozen people who regularly use the park-n-ride near my house. Not to mention that it will curtail my ability to run errands on the way home - meaning I'd have to jump in the car and head back out towards the city anyway eating further into what little free time I have left.

I did the math and if I took the bus to work everyday, it would save me approximately $1,200 a year in gas as well as 15,000 miles of annual wear and tear to my car that already has nearly 90,000 on it after 3-1/2 yrs of ownership. If I paid full fare - it would be a wash in terms of the cost of fuel with a little savings down the road for maintenance.

You've about summed it all up, Les. Mass transit in any form, including OnTrack and Amtrak, is a lost cause in this country, and certainly upstate. We have spent (and continue to spend) billions on highways and airports, all in the name of "convenience," so that each of us can have the luxury of going where we want and doing what we want when we want.

I suppose that if the price of gasoline around these parts pushes up toward the $2.50 or $3.00 per gallon level, then that economic disincentive to drive might kick in. As long as the taxpayers are willing to subsidize private transportation by maintaining "free"ways and access to oil fields (Iraq War at $156 billion, thus far), you are probably right in your assessment.

Meanwhile, we can hope the bridge over Park Street is built and we can hope that someone figures out how to get around the bureaucrats and their regulations so that OnTrack can actually get to the RTC and the ball park. Traffic on Hiawatha Boulevard can be a bear on those few occasions when there is a crowd for a ballgame (usually a Wegmans or some other give-away night). Heck, it would be worth it to park at Carousel, hop on OnTrack and ride the half-mile (or whatever distance) up to the ball park! Now there's mass transit at its finest.

That whole area of Syracuse is one big confusing mess. I cringe when my wife wants to drag me to the Carousel Mall when we're out visiting with the in-laws.

I've always wondered who's bright idea it was to plop an interstate through the heart of downtown Syracuse.

nessman wrote:I've always wondered who's bright idea it was to plop an interstate through the heart of downtown Syracuse.

The so-called Onondaga Interchange (between I-81 and I-690) was opened to traffic in August 1968. Of course, I-690 used the old NYC elevated roadbed through the city. On the other hand, I-81 involved the wholesale demolition of significant portions of the city. Ironically, for all of the disruption, the NYSDOT folks decided to save $1.5 million (1968) by not building connector ramps between I-81 South to I-690 West and I-690 East to I-81 North. This necessitates traveling over city streets (Hiawatha or Bear) that would be seriously altered if the DestiNYUSA project ever becomes more than a paper drawing.

NYSDOT estimates the cost of building those ramps today at approximately $40 million, many times the 1968 cost and many times in excess of the effect of inflation. If DestiNY is built, this gap will have to be closed.

Meanwhile, OnTrack chugs right by Carousel Center (TBK DestiNY) and even has a stop there. Now, with a little creativity, we could save the $40 million for highway ramps, spend a little of it for some off-site parking and run light rail service right to the entertainment complex's front door. Hmmmm ..... nah! It would never work. :D