On this date in Rochester rail history...

When the Pennsy couldn't find a taker for the LV it moved to cut costs by sharing facilities where possible; while they had to apply for trackage rights to serve Rochester via the LV from Buffalo, every indication I've seen was it was little more than a formality at that point.

Similarly, after the PC merger the LV was able to do away with duplicate track from Geneva to Auburn.

I'd have to look at a map of the PRR and the abandonment dates, but once PRR became PC, if that track still connected to the NYC somewhere it was one railroad and new trackage rights wouldn't be needed; the pre-merger rights would just be a formality to abandon.

CPSmith wrote:Not quite ...

In the STB era, trackage rights are applied for and granted through STB decisions. Similarly, ending or removal (semantics) of trackage rights are also applied for and granted through STB decisions. Mergers, acquisitions, line sales, etc. do not alter existing trackage rights agreements - they stand on their own.

i didn't say the merger ended or legally cancelled PRR's trackage rights on LV. The term "moot" means unnecessary, which those trackage rights surely were after 2/1/1968. Penn Central probably still had trackage rights for a while afterward, but I would be very surprised if they used them much.

CPSmith wrote:With respect to the PRR trackage in Monroe County and south to the LV junction, most of it remained intact well into the Conrail era. I believe (but won't guess) the PRR from the LV junction through Scottsville to the West Shore was the first to be pulled (and rather quickly) as the merger made it redundant and it had few (if any) online customers. I'm sure someone has the dates - I do not. I'm guessing the first item to go was the West Shore NYC-PRR diamond near Black Creek. The rest of the PRR north of the diamond and into the city hung around until the late '70s or early '80s.

I did not say the PRR Branch was immediately pulled up. The merger which took place on 2/1/1968 led to the demise of track at a later date (late '70s IIRC). You were reading a bit too much into my post.

C2629 wrote:January 11 1977,

Rochester NY, this is the B&O local sitting at Ridge Rd. waiting to get into Eastman Kodak. I cant be positive but I think this may have been the first time a Western Maryland F unit made an appearance on the B&O belt line.

In the FWIW category, the WM F7A began life as WM 65 and entered service in 1950. One of the few WM diesels to escape the scourge of the circus livery. It spent most of its career on the WM pulling coal drags from Knobmount to Port Covington. Late in its WM life it also hauled coal from Gray, PA. to Knobmount and from Elkins to Knobmount.

Sorry that I'm a little late to the game with this.

Poppyl

CPSmith wrote:WM F units were in Rochester in 1976. Here's WM 66 at Lincoln Park in March of that year:

By the next year it was numbered Chessie 7164. F7's 65 and 66 and two B's were the usual consist for the aforementioned coal drags. Maybe that's why both dodged the circus livery.

Poppyl

CPSmith wrote:... and WM 7150 in May of 1976, again in Lincoln Park:

That's one(#52) of the two F3A's the WM acquired in 1947. Note the circus livery. In case you are wondering, I'm partial to either the WM fireball or speedlettering liveries.

Poppyl

Matt Langworthy wrote:... and eventually led to the demise of most of the remaining Pennsy trackage in Monroe County.

Is there any Pennsy trackage left, other than the spur leading north from Genesee Junction?

Certainly not a major item but this entry will show that even small shortlines can have major headaches.

February 3, 1982 Ontario Midland

1. One of the regular crew marked off leaving things a little shorthanded.

2. It was planned to take the Jordan Spreader and use the flanger attachment to clear snow. However engine 86 developed a severe leak in the oil cooler, puking oil all over everything and putting the engine out of service.

3. One of the track crew took a curve a bit too fast on the highway, the hirail slid into the opposite lane and hit a garbage truck head on. The employee was unhurt but the truck was totaled.

4. Engine 40 derailed 1 axle on ice at Wolcott. That took a couple hours to rerail

5. Problems with the switch leading to Durkee Foods threatened another derailment and took a lot of time and effort to get the cars spotted

6. At that point it was evening and the crew was sent back to Sodus instead of continuing east to Red Creek.

BR&P wrote:Certainly not a major item but this entry will show that even small shortlines can have major headaches....

Oof.......and I'm guessing all were happy the day was over after all that!

dj_paige wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:... and eventually led to the demise of most of the remaining Pennsy trackage in Monroe County.

Is there any Pennsy trackage left, other than the spur leading north from Genesee Junction?

Three PRR remnants in Monroe county, apart from ROW with no track:

1. a spur of track from Genesee Junction, used by Metalico, a metal recycling business.
2. Bridge over the Erie Canal at Genesee Valley Park, for the line to the West Main st station, no track.
3. Bridge over the Erie Canal immediately north of the airport, for the line to Lincoln Park, no track.

I think thats everything..
Scot

Sorry to rain on your parade, Matt - I was just trying to make a couple of points...

One might infer (correctly or not) from your post that mergers, line acquisitions, et al affect trackage rights. In today's STB world, they do not. Not sure about the ICC world in 1968, even though I was around then... (oof)

Secondly, the PRR north of the West Shore remained intact through the PC era and the initial part of Conrail, only to fall victim to the lack of any substantial online traffic and not due to any PC merger related issues. During the Conrail era, it was used (other than below) mostly as an avenue to get to the ex-Erie terminal at Exchange St. Once Mortimer Jct. was re-jigged, the bulk of the PRR lacked any real purpose.

As far as I know, the only two remaining active ex-PRR lines (i.e., tracks in place) in Monroe County are the 84 lumber (Metalico) spur near Scottsville Rd., now served off of the West Shore (a connection that did not exist in the PC days), and the tank farm spur off of the R&S next to the canal and near Chili Ave. - google maps shows it in place, but I haven't been that way in a while to confirm.

I'll do better next time. Sorry.

This has been written about extensively, most notably Railroad Mergers and the Coming of Conrail. The talks between the LV and PRR for the PRR to run over the LV from Buffalo to Rochester were tense and took a long time. It was not a simple matter. It also came up during the hearings on the PRR abandonment in 1963. The government urged them to cooperate and find a speedy solution.

lvrr325 wrote:When the Pennsy couldn't find a taker for the LV it moved to cut costs by sharing facilities where possible; while they had to apply for trackage rights to serve Rochester via the LV from Buffalo, every indication I've seen was it was little more than a formality at that point.

The tank farm spur was never PRR. It was B&O.

CPSmith wrote:As far as I know, the only two remaining active ex-PRR lines (i.e., tracks in place) in Monroe County are the 84 lumber (Metalico) spur near Scottsville Rd., now served off of the West Shore (a connection that did not exist in the PC days), and the tank farm spur off of the R&S next to the canal and near Chili Ave. - google maps shows it in place, but I haven't been that way in a while to confirm.

nydepot wrote:The tank farm spur was never PRR. It was B&O.

CPSmith wrote:As far as I know, the only two remaining active ex-PRR lines (i.e., tracks in place) in Monroe County are the 84 lumber (Metalico) spur near Scottsville Rd., now served off of the West Shore (a connection that did not exist in the PC days), and the tank farm spur off of the R&S next to the canal and near Chili Ave. - google maps shows it in place, but I haven't been that way in a while to confirm.

Yes, thanks for the correction.

The B&O spur is on the canal side (or west side if you will allow) and the PRR is right next door on the "east" side of the tank farm. Although there is some visual evidence of PRR right-of-way, there is nothing (no tracks) there today, hence my confusion.

That's what happens when you miss your afternoon nap ...

February 8, 1978

Digging out from very heavy snow, operations at Goodman Street yard were unusual. Winters had a giant snowblower mounted on a Payloader. The idea was to have the crews clear cars off the yard tracks so the payloader could systematically clear the snow. The afternoon West Base yard job had 2 units, 7600 and 7601. Almost 100 cars were temporarily put on 3 Main Track, and other tracks in the yard were re-arranged. While handling track 3 in the Coal Yard, a loaded covered hopper became off-center, and was leaning badly. It was safely put on a spur for the road truck to deal with later.

Conrail was famous - or perhaps infamous - for balancing mainline power which accumulated at Selkirk or points east, by running "Lites" or "Cab Lites" - a train of engines only, or engines and cabooses only. These were sent west and in most cases the "powers that be" would not allow them to drop off engines in route no matter how badly they were needed - the word always was they were urgently needed to the west. This evening, train DB-1 worked at Rochester and picked up 43 cars, departing toward Buffalo with 124 cars - and only 2 3000hp units. It helped Rochester Yard by getting rid of a track of Buffalos, but guaranteed to stall on Byron Hill. Meantime, two groups of lite engines, totaling 21 units, roared by westward. Apparently nobody in power control thought it was worth handing another couple units to DB-1 so he could make the hill without tying up the works!

Things were ever worse, weather-wise, to the east. A special "snow train" went east on the main line. 2 road units, about 6 TTX flat cars with payloaders and bulldozers, 2 cabooses, a 5400 series Alco roadswitcher, and the rotary plow on the rear.

Supervision on hand included the Terminal Superintendent, the Road Foreman of Engines, and two Trainmasters.

An interesting 8 hours to be sure!

February 9, 1978

Cleanup continued, the snow auger was back in service 4:20PM after breaking down. It cleared from 1 North Yard to 2 Middle Yard (13 tracks) and broke down again.

The First Belt crew to Charlotte had a GP35, the 2393, which was running poorly and almost totally useless. They had a 7 car train south out of Charlotte, and had to double the train from Lake Avenue to Kodak!