NYS&W - resurrector of the EL?

Does anyone feel that in the 80s/90s that the NYS&W 'resurrected' the EL which was essentially kicked to the curb by a CR "rip and run" mentality which manifested much in the 80s?

I mean for a while we got some BIG frieghts back on the Tier with them autorackers and superstackers (as I call them), some SD45 piloted, plus new activity on the 2 ex-DL&W lines north of Bingo.

Seems now the NYS&W is in need of 'resurrection'. There just isn't that much freight going around (by rail) anymore.

Some of us maybe got the mis-impression that the split of CR in CSX/NS would have had NS "re-freighting" some of the Tier w/some traffic pulled off the River Line. So much for that assumption.

Comments? Feedback? Input?

Yep, I always thought of the Susquehanna as sort of a modern day EL.

A smaller RR surrounded by a huge one.
Long COFC|TOFC trains.
Big power.
Sharp paint jobs on their loco's
Seemed to have a can do attitude.
SD45's!!!
Running long heavy trains over steep grades that were never meant to have such trains running over them (Think 1970's Boonton line)

and NYSW uses the old Erie main from cambell hall to bingo.

It would have been nice if they still had that short cut route to the mines and L&HR via Beaver Lake IIRC plus if they were able to get the ex-ERIE main from Greycourt to Middletown for additional iron and thus a shorter shot to PJ. Woulda, coulda, shoulda,,,, but "just imagine".

Well ya gotta give Conrail a little credit for running a bunch of trains on the Tier in the 1980's. It was the ONLY line with the clearances for stack trains and they used it well. I remember a few times seeing 4 CR stack trains plus the OIBU/BUOI and the ELOI/OIEL. Then throw in two or more NYS&W stack trains or haulage trains. The Tier was hopping on many days.

Once clearances were improved on the other CR routes the traffic decreased dramatically.

It wasnt really an assumption, they flat out put it in their operating plan. They "planned" to run 3 pairs of stacks, a TOFC, an autorack and a manifest over the tier. Never saw that happen. Nonetheless, you can never give up hope.

The NS Southern Tier plans were a smokescreen to get NYS and rail labor to back the Conrail split.

Southern Tier communities saw with the split that neither NS nor CSX would need the old EL, and feared the loss of the RR.

Labor on the old NKP was concerned since the pre-split NS was the western outlet for CP and NYSW intermodal traffic, and were concerned about loss of jobs (remember, most of the NYSW stack traffic was actually CSX intermodal, moved by NYSW, CP and NS; after the split that stuff was going to the CSX River Line on day 1).

So NS comes out with their Tier operating plan to show the state and labor that everything would be fine.

Support was given to the split, and predictibly to some, the full complement of trains never materialized. Labor didn't much care, as NS NAFTA traffic with Canada via Buffalo boomed around the time of the split and the NKP guys were pretty much getting the amount of work the Tier operating plan had envisioned even without the Tier running as promised.

cjvrr wrote:Well ya gotta give Conrail a little credit for running a bunch of trains on the Tier in the 1980's. It was the ONLY line with the clearances for stack trains and they used it well. I remember a few times seeing 4 CR stack trains plus the OIBU/BUOI and the ELOI/OIEL. Then throw in two or more NYS&W stack trains or haulage trains. The Tier was hopping on many days.

Once clearances were improved on the other CR routes the traffic decreased dramatically.

I recall TV-62 in the later AM on weekends too. Usually GP40s and 70 or so TOFCs.

I was blessed to be a teenage railfan in Waverly, NY during the mid 80's!
very interesting times..
Conrail, D&H, Guilford, Susquehanna, and NS power could be found on any given day..even Alcos!

D&H got trackage rights on the Southern Tier Main between Binghamton and Buffalo when Conrail was formed in 1976..then D&H was operated by Guilford, and briefly by NYSW, which accounted for the power mix..I just put together this timeline, compliled from about 8 different web sources..I think its accurate!
if not, someone please correct me..

Southern Tier Main, West of Binghamton, a timeline.

The beginning of time to 1960 - Erie Railroad. (im not counting Erie predecessors)

1960 - 1976 - EL

1976 - 1999 - Conrail.

1976 - D&H gets traffic rights between Bing and Buffalo.

1984 - 1988 - D&H taken over by Guilford. Guilford trains now running between Bing and Buffalo,(along with Conrail) Guilford is using the D&H rights from '76.

1988 - Guilford discards the D&H after declaring it bankrupt.
End of the brief 4-year Guilford era on the Souther Tier main between Binghamton & Buffalo.

1988 - 1991 - Susquehanna operates the D&H while it reorganized during it's bankrupcy, and until a buyer can be found, resulting in NYSW power on the southern tier main between Binghamton & Buffalo.

1991 - Canadian Pacific purchases the D&H, now we have CP trains on the ST main between Bing and Buffalo...continuing to today.
(the old D&H traffic rights have remained in effect, regardless of who was operating the D&H..which is why CP can still operate trains over the ST main today.)

1999 - Conrail is dissolved and is split between NS and CSX.
S.T. main between Bing and Buffalo becomes NS.

Summary, Railroads operating between Binghamton to Buffalo on the Southern Tier Main.

1850 - 1960 - Erie
1960 - 1976 - Erie Lackawanna
1976 - 1984 - Conrail & D&H
1984 - 1988 - Conrail & Guilford
1988 - 1991 - Conrail & Susquehanna
1991 - 1999 - Conrail & CP
1999 - present - NS & CP.

I dont have dates for the stack trains..when did they start over the 'tier?
they ended in 1999 then? when CSX got the Water Level Route?
Why did Conrail operate some of the stack trains,
and why did D&H/Guilford/Susquehanna operate other stack trains?
I have never been clear on that..

or were ALL the stack trains technically D&H/Guilford/Susquehanna, but some just happened to have Conrail power?

A typical Guilford train of the mid 80's passes through Waverly,
seven locos!
5 EMD GP's of mixed B&M and D&H heritage. (including LV 318!)
One D&H Alco C424!
and one D&H U33C.
(sorry the pic quality isnt so great..)











thanks,
Scot

Thanks for posting the pix. I like the D&H U33C in that loco lashup but the last photos of the APL superstacks looks very cool. A non-railfan friend of mine used to think the those were military containers with the red bird, go figure?

One minor update...

CP (ex-D&H) crews no longer run the Tier between Bingo and Buffalo... CP and NS did some trackage rights shifting and as of March 2005, CP no longer runs their own trains over the Southern Tier anymore, any CP traffic is just haulage rights. CP also gave up their Buffalo, NY jobs during this restructuring...

It's a shame that this historic piece of railroad east of Binghamton is a desolate place nowadays compared to it's heyday in the early '60's. For awhile, in the mid '80's, it did seem the NYS&W made the "Delaware Division" a hotbed of activity once again, giving a whole new generation the chance to experience big-time railroading there. It was pretty bleak during the Conrail years after the River Line was up to par, and before double stacks became the norm for COFC. Then, all those CR TV-200 & 300's started rolling AND the NYS&W SLN's carrying NTV-4 & 9 symbols on Conrail in addition to SU-99/100's... and not to mention the CR OIBU/EL series. I can see how the NYS&W draws parallels to "resurrecting" the Delaware Divsion/EL and put a new lease on life to the former EL lines that CR wanted to shed...but the modern day NYS&W operations really don't do justice to the EL heyday of the 1960's Southern Tier...

Weekends in the mid to late '80's were pretty busy between Campbell Hall and Binghamton... SLN-5 (NTV-9) was coming down from Maybrook, TV-203K was changing crews at Port Jervis, OIBU was by Waldwick, TV-302 was east of Narrowsburg, ELOI was east of Deposit, SU-100 was ordered 4 hours ago at Binghamton and somewhere in the mix, WACH-90 was working at Middletown, and the usual array of NJT trains... good times!!!

The only thing is that during those days, NJT ran little traffic on Saturdays and none on Sundays... now that traffic is much better and the freight traffic is down.

In the ERIE heyday [pre-1960] was the entire Tier from Bingo to PJ 2 tracks, with 2 tracks each on the Graham Line and Mainline, with four tracks from Suffern to Ridgewood Jct., 2 each on ML & BCL, with 4 tracks from Rutheford Jct. down to Croxton?

SooLineRob wrote: Weekends in the mid to late '80's were pretty busy between Campbell Hall and Binghamton... SLN-5 (NTV-9) was coming down from Maybrook, TV-203K was changing crews at Port Jervis, OIBU was by Waldwick, TV-302 was east of Narrowsburg, ELOI was east of Deposit, SU-100 was ordered 4 hours ago at Binghamton and somewhere in the mix, WACH-90 was working at Middletown, and the usual array of NJT trains... good times!!!

Don't forget the Metro North RDCs too!

scottychaos wrote:I was blessed to be a teenage railfan in Waverly, NY during the mid 80's!

I dont have dates for the stack trains..when did they start over the 'tier?
they ended in 1999 then? when CSX got the Water Level Route?
Why did Conrail operate some of the stack trains,
and why did D&H/Guilford/Susquehanna operate other stack trains?
I have never been clear on that..

or were ALL the stack trains technically D&H/Guilford/Susquehanna, but some just happened to have Conrail power?

Scot

Scot,

I would say the stack trains started with Conrail running the APL trains down the Tier. Mid 1980s timeframe, but I don't know exactly. The NYS&W was able to get haulage rights to run regular freight between their lines in Binghamton and New Jersey around that time too. Within short order they pulled the rabbit out of the hat an announced they would be running Sea Land (CSX) stack trains from points west with the D&H to their Little Ferry yard in New Jersey. This was to directly compete with Conrail and was backed obviously by CSX. Later on NS also joined in using Resources Terminal in North Bergen for their transload facility.

So depending upon the container company's contract each railroad ran different containers. APL (American President Lines) went to Conrail. Sealand (CSX) went to the NYS&W as well as Hanjin. There were plenty of others too.

At the time of the Conrail split, both CSX and NS had existing contracts with NYS&W to run certain trains, as those contracts ran out that traffic was shifted back to an all CSX or NS route. By 2001 those contracts ran out and the NYS&W was left without any stack trains