NYS&W Another Era Begins?

RichM wrote:Not intending to start a flame war, but when I tendered my shares in 1997, the proxy specified the acquisition company's ownership as 40/40/20.

http://www.secinfo.com/$/SEC/Filings.as ... sition+LLC

If Mr. Rich subsequently bought out more of CSX and NS ownership, to the best of my knowledge it's not documented anywhere.

From what I was told, Walter bought back the stock from NS/CSX in 2005 or 2006, right before he got sick.. I'm not disagreeing with you Rich, I'm just stating that "the people in the know" have told me that Walter owned 80% before he passed away. Who knows what is true!

I don't have the documents at hand, but the CSX 10-K filing for 2005 shows the DO holdings at 10%. NS had it listed when they and CSX reorganized their Conrail holdings a few years ago.

DOn't want to get into this to much but what "toys" have been sold and donated and where did they go?

As for excursions, it seems that most of the "toys" have been sold, or donated, away, which makes them unlikely events outside of perhaps the annual Maple Fest trains.

Susquehaniewikiwokiwani wrote:DOn't want to get into this to much but what "toys" have been sold and donated and where did they go?

the toys in question are the Susquehanna 2-8-2 steam locomotive,
now owned by the NYSWTHS, not the railroad.

And the two E-units, recently sold to Larry's truck & electric.

no excursion/passenger type locos on the NYSW anymore.

Scot

You guys need some info from 2007, not 1997, to substantiate these claims being made. IF you don't have solid facts, then let's get back to speaking about the "new era', and stop "speculating' on Walters holdings. Threads already available, for steam locos, and Alcos as well....(pulls key from pocket...... )

The Alco/MLW "toys" have also been sold.

(Let's face it, outside of GVT, the LA&L group, and a handful of others, that's what those locomotives are - obsolete toys. That's not a slight on the units or those who like them - but it would be the view of the folks at CSX or NS).

It's also my understanding that it's currently 80-10-10 and the purchase bringing Mr. Rich's ownership to 80% was funded through loans from CSX and/or NS. This purchase occurred some time after the CR split and initial DO stock buyout. The loans funding it would sound like they don't make sense, but it lets them hold a minority share, which I am sure is more advantageous tax-wise and FRA-wise, yet still have a means to maintain control if needed. Which, you may not choose to believe, but I have to think that if Mr. Rich had the funds available to make that purchase, he would have done so sooner.

As to the truth of the situation, someone's already posted that a 2005 report exists noting a 10% holding for CSX. CSX and NS being public corporations, I am sure their holdings in other companies are viewable, perhaps in an annual report, perhaps by written request or some such.

(Let's face it, outside of GVT, the LA&L group, and a handful of others, that's what those locomotives are - obsolete toys. That's not a slight on the units or those who like them - but it would be the view of the folks at CSX or NS).

Slightly off topic, but there is an interesting email chain within NS that follows the Alcos on the DL quite closely. Last week when the two RS3's held down the Portland Turn a lot of photos were bouncing around offices in Norfolk, Roanoke and Atlanta!

It's also my understanding that it's currently 80-10-10 and the purchase bringing Mr. Rich's ownership to 80% was funded through loans from CSX and/or NS. This purchase occurred some time after the CR split and initial DO stock buyout. The loans funding it would sound like they don't make sense, but it lets them hold a minority share, which I am sure is more advantageous tax-wise and FRA-wise, yet still have a means to maintain control if needed. Which, you may not choose to believe, but I have to think that if Mr. Rich had the funds available to make that purchase, he would have done so sooner.

Remember that ownership and control are not the same thing. DO currently has a three person board of directors. It was Walter Rich, a CSX representative and a NS representative (who, for a while, was NS CEO Wick Moorman before he assumed his current roles). If Walter wanted to do something he had to get at least one of these two to agree with him. There were a few things that led to a 2-1 vote against Walter: ending passenger excursion on property owned by NYS&W was one of these.

No one outside of NS, CSX and DO knows what the real financial picture is. A year or so ago I made a comment to a fairly well placed official at NS that the NYS&W must be doing well and he remarked that I obviously had not seen the financials or I would not make such a statement!

OK, first of all, thanks for updating the financial picture.

It seems odd that both NS and CSX would sell most of their stakes but continue to hold the debt by financing this sale, but from your description of board operations, it sounds like the principal debtors still had decision-making power.

To the comment of what their financial picture really looks like, who knows? That's the advantage of being taken private, you don't have to show a profit to actually make money.

I think we've opened an interesting box but I'm pretty sure we have less than perfect answers. I saw several dozen gondolas / material handling cars stored along the Utica branch yesterday just above Chenango Forks... it made me wonder if the guys in Cooperstown don't also own one or more of the waste facilities in North Bergen through several separate corporations... no rumor, just speculation.

What will become of the M-1?

Mods note: edited for "content"

The M-1 is owned by the URHS and leased by the NYS&WT&HS. Sadly, as that organization has moved away from anything remotely related to the NYS&W, the M-1 has been set aside, forgotten in favor of wine trains and miniature golf courses in Phillipsburg.

Had the ALCOs been maintained as they should have been, buying them would hardly have been stupid. Of course, nothing has ever been maintained the way it should have been over there.

Dave Becker

First of all the ALCo's were available and probably a quick solution for the power short Susie-Q. The weren't all that bad of a choice for motive power given that they are six axle and 3600 horsepower. And actually, they didn't buy all of "those", many were leased from SIXX. Yeah, I guess they could've been maintained better, but I don't think we give the Q's mechanical forces enough credit for what they do. Hey, the 1800's and the 3636 are still kickin'.

As reported earlier the Alcos have been sold and some if not all are off the property at this point in time.

My understanding is they leased and then purchased them at a very good price. The Alcos filled the void while the EMDs rotated out for rebuild, now the most of the SD-40s and 45s in the fleet are rebuilt no need for the Alcos.

Also note the NYS&W was rostering engines from three different manufacturers, EMD, GE and Alco, what a pain in the butt when looking at spare parts to stock and the knowledge the mechanics need to work on each. Having a fleet from one manufacturer would seem much more economical to me.

Ok where is the M-1 now? Also what will happem to the M-2 and M-3 rebuild along with 18? Where will the M-5, M-7, and M-8 go? What happened to those two ex NS coaches and the dome observation?

Susquehaniewikiwokiwani wrote:Ok where is the M-1 now?

The M-1 is NOT owned by Susquehanna and is at Phillipsburg with the also-owned NYS&WTHS 142.

Steamtown Observer wrote:The M-1 is owned by the URHS and leased by the NYS&WT&HS. Sadly, as that organization has moved away from anything remotely related to the NYS&W, the M-1 has been set aside, forgotten in favor of wine trains and miniature golf courses in Phillipsburg.