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  • NYC Putnam Division Mohansic Branch - Yorktown Heights

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

 #889795  by Jeff Smith
 
There is a guy who used to work the Put, and gives an annual talk at the library in Briarcliff Manor, nee the former Put station. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but I'm sure Otto knows him. He also wrote a book or two, I think. But he surely was not around circa 1918, at least not as a railroader.

If you're interested in other area rails, Bernie Rudberg gives an annual tour of old CNE or NY & NE rails up around Hopewell. He's leading the project to restore the old Hopewell depot. I believe that tour approaches. It would be interesting if we could get someone to lead a bike ride or tour of the old Put.
 #889803  by kjd73170
 
Jeff Smith wrote:There is a guy who used to work the Put, and gives an annual talk at the library in Briarcliff Manor, nee the former Put station. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but I'm sure Otto knows him. He also wrote a book or two, I think. But he surely was not around circa 1918, at least not as a railroader.

If you're interested in other area rails, Bernie Rudberg gives an annual tour of old CNE or NY & NE rails up around Hopewell. He's leading the project to restore the old Hopewell depot. I believe that tour approaches. It would be interesting if we could get someone to lead a bike ride or tour of the old Put.
Are you thinking of Joe Schiavone? He's an excellent source of material on all things Putnam Division. He'd be the one to talk to about which tracks those are/were up there. He's a native to the area and often he speaks at different library and other events throughout the year. Although the books really go in depth about the operations, time lines, and details of the stations/trains, some of the branches off of these lines can be not as well documented due to their brief life span, little or no photographic evidence at the time they were active, or in some cases the fact that they were only built for temporary use and never taken up. I do not think he has an email address, but I am sure someone here has a listing of when he'll make another appearance to speak about the Put and it's branches.
Last edited by kjd73170 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #889805  by CarterB
 
Otto, et al.....seems your posting of http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5350104489 shows that the earlier 1911 map may have been 'as proposed', since the Park Commission ROW looks like the actual Hospital spur went NNW across Crom pond?? (Thus the trestle aforementioned? Any remnants of such?

Any idea/s as to where it actually ended on the hospital grounds? The Hospital actually did build several cottages, that were in use, at least in 1913, before the remaining plans were defunded in late 1917. So there was indeed a hospital, of sorts, there for a while. Any remnants of those cottages?
 #889820  by fredmcain
 
Jeff Smith wrote: If you're interested in other area rails, Bernie Rudberg gives an annual tour of old CNE or NY & NE rails up around Hopewell. He's leading the project to restore the old Hopewell depot. I believe that tour approaches. It would be interesting if we could get someone to lead a bike ride or tour of the old Put.
I once discovered a couple of abandoned rail lines over on the west side of the Hudson River. They ran in a generally westerly direction from just south of Newburgh, I think. Not sure where they went but they *STILL* had track on them in the mid 1980’s although it was really deteriorated and very, very badly overgrown. I think one of these lines might have been a remnant of the NYO&W but I’m not sure nor do I know how far the track structure went. One of these lines might've been the one(s) you mentioned.

I am a fervent believer in daring to dream something. Although some people like to poo-poo new ideas as hopeless dreaming, that is actually how a lot of new things come about, isn’t it? You’ve got to start somewhere.

I don’t think the “dream” of a new and rebuilt “Putnam” Line or a rebuilt Harlem Line to Chatham, NY is so way out. Some people might think that is totally crazy but not me.

One good place to start is by contacting the chambers of commerce in the communities involved and see what they think about this. That doesn’t get the tracks put back in right away, but it plants a seed. People need time to think about that kind of stuff and that “thinking” process can easily take a decade or more.

I would love to go on some kind of a tour of the Put or other historic railways but unfortunately, I now live in Indiana. I would still encourage it nevertheless.

Regards,
Fred M. cain
 #889821  by fredmcain
 
CarterB wrote:So there was indeed a hospital, of sorts, there for a while. Any remnants of those cottages?
The 1941 edition USGS topo map also shows some cottages identified as a CCC camp. Not sure if those were converted from the old hospital cottages or if they were built later. Does anybody know?

I e-mailed the NY State Parks commission yesterday asked for information on what is now know as the Franklin D Roosevelt State Park but have yet to get a response from them.

Fred M. Cain
 #890048  by Otto Vondrak
 
CarterB wrote:Otto, et al.....seems your posting of http://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/5350104489 shows that the earlier 1911 map may have been 'as proposed', since the Park Commission ROW looks like the actual Hospital spur went NNW across Crom pond?? (Thus the trestle aforementioned? Any remnants of such?

Any idea/s as to where it actually ended on the hospital grounds? The Hospital actually did build several cottages, that were in use, at least in 1913, before the remaining plans were defunded in late 1917. So there was indeed a hospital, of sorts, there for a while. Any remnants of those cottages?
Pretty much the county ROW is where the tracks were...
 #890115  by fredmcain
 
Otto Vondrak wrote:
CarterB wrote: Any idea/s as to where it actually ended on the hospital grounds?
Pretty much the county ROW is where the tracks were...
Dear Forum,

I have attempted to doctor up the trail map of the Franklin D. Roosevelt (formerly Mohansic) State Park. As you can see, I indicated in red where I believe (to the best of my memory) I encountered the abandoned right-of-way (ROW). There was a short section where the Park trail was built right on the ROW. I tried to draw arrows showing the direction that I recall the ROW going where it left the park trail along with a question mark because I had no idea whatsoever where it went. Where it was not used as a trail, it was completely impossible to follow because it was so badly overgrown (with even a few large diameter trees). However, I am certain that I could make out cuts in the ground that would have only pointed toward rail use.

I have to admit that I am going by memory here and that this was quite some time ago that I saw this. It is also true that this park map is basically diagrammatic in nature and might not be precisely accurate. However, there is one thing that I am so certain of that I’d almost bet the farm on: I saw this clear over on the north side of the park next to U.S. 202 – quite some distance from the location where our historic maps showed that the branch was limited to.

Where in the world do you suppose it went? Is there a possibility that the Company might have graded a ROW across what was later U.S. 202 into the tiny hamlet of Yorktown? I realize that is entire speculation there but it might actually make sense. I mean, with a hospital spur like that, the railroad would’ve wanted to add customers wherever possible. If they thought for a minute that they could add a team track, a lumberyard or a coal dump in Yorktown, then perhaps just maybe? Who would possibly know?

I hope to hear from someone at the Park Service. Also, somewhere I’d bet that there are some plans archived for the Mohansic State Hospital – It’s just a matter of knowing where to look (which I don’t). I would just *LOVE* to be able to go back there again and take another look at this but, unfortunately, I now live in Indiana. If anyone on this forum ever finds themselves driving along U.S. 202 between Brewster and Peekskill, by all means – stop at the park and check it out. It really doesn’t take that long of a stop there and U.S. 202 is kind of a pleasant drive. :)

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

Image
 #890122  by CarterB
 
Fred, from your memoried map and what the topo and period maps show, I have drawn what may have been the ROW south of the area/s you saw. Would sure be interesting to find out how far north the actual railroad went, and or was graded. Corrections, edifications welcome!!
Image
 #890128  by fredmcain
 
CarterB wrote:Fred, from your memoried map and what the topo and period maps show, I have drawn what may have been the ROW south of the area/s you saw. Would sure be interesting to find out how far north the actual railroad went, and or was graded. Corrections, edifications welcome!!
Carter,

Your green line "guess" is basically what I came up with too. The puzzle is that none of the historic maps that the forum has been able to find so far indicate anything like that. And yet I'm sure I saw this. Could be they planned to build a heating plant right on what later became U.S. 202 (so they'd have both road and rail access). Or, perhaps they planned some kind of a depot further south and needed room north of there to turn trains and/or store equipment; or perhaps they did plan to take the spur to Yorktown as I have already speculated.

As an off-topic aside, I can also tell the group that clear back in 1985, the Wassaic State Hospital near Patterson was *STILL* receiving hopper loads of steam coal at their heating plant and might even still be doing so today (although I'd doubt it). Nevertheless, 1985 was still kind of late for that kind of operation.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain
 #890144  by Jeff Smith
 
There was a stop on the Upper Harlem called State Hospital at some point. It may now be referred to as Wingdale. I know a guy from my Army Reserve time who was a counselor of some sort there. As I've read in the MNRR forum, there is no more freight on the Harlem Branch north of Mt. Vernon. I believe that ended when CR pulled out of Danbury.
 #890498  by Otto Vondrak
 
Jeff Smith wrote:There was a stop on the Upper Harlem called State Hospital at some point. It may now be referred to as Wingdale. I know a guy from my Army Reserve time who was a counselor of some sort there. As I've read in the MNRR forum, there is no more freight on the Harlem Branch north of Mt. Vernon. I believe that ended when CR pulled out of Danbury.
Wingdale station was closed and they renamed State Hospital to Harlem Valley-Wingdale at some point since more traffic was bound for the HVPC than for "downtown" Wingdale, but this thread is about the Putnam Division's Mohansic Branch, so let's please stick to that. Thanks!

-otto-
 #890499  by Otto Vondrak
 
Jeff Smith wrote:There is a guy who used to work the Put, and gives an annual talk at the library in Briarcliff Manor, nee the former Put station. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but I'm sure Otto knows him. He also wrote a book or two, I think. But he surely was not around circa 1918, at least not as a railroader.
Joe Schiavone is a retired school teacher from Carmel, not a retired railroader.
 #890502  by Otto Vondrak
 
fredmcain wrote:
CarterB wrote: The puzzle is that none of the historic maps that the forum has been able to find so far indicate anything like that. And yet I'm sure I saw this. Could be they planned to build a heating plant right on what later became U.S. 202 (so they'd have both road and rail access). Or, perhaps they planned some kind of a depot further south and needed room north of there to turn trains and/or store equipment; or perhaps they did plan to take the spur to Yorktown as I have already
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Most likely, there was to be one branch to feed coal to the power plant, and another branch possible to serve the State School or State Hospital to be built there. Might be some storage for coal cars, but I dont think they would get that much. Even the state hospital in Wingdale ony got a car or two at a time, so no need for a storage yard for empties. Any passenger trains could easily be stored in the coach yard at Yorktown, most likely in later years a single gas electric motorcar could have handled the shuttle duties between the depot at Yorktown and the proposed state complex.

-otto-
 #890620  by RussNelson
 
fredmcain wrote:The puzzle is that none of the historic maps that the forum has been able to find so far indicate anything like that.
A LOT of railbeds are not depicted on the historic maps. In particular, anything abandoned before the historic topo maps were created was never (well, maybe *rarely*) included.
fredmcain wrote:I once discovered a couple of abandoned rail lines over on the west side of the Hudson River. They ran in a generally westerly direction from just south of Newburgh, I think.
There were a ton. The NYO&W was completely pulled up everywhere it wasn't actively being reused, AFAIK. However, I think you found the Erie, which had two branches that joined at Vails Gate Junction. The western track (the Newburgh Branch) was pulled up. The eastern of those tracks (the Newburgh Short Line) is still there, although they look disused to my eye. It's been converted to an industrial track, but used to go quite a ways south. It crossed the Thruway at Newburgh Junction. It's very visible in-between the north and south lanes.

At this point, I've pretty much got all of the New York State railbeds entered into http://openstreetmap.org/ so that's the best place to get questions about "where did the tracks go?" answered (and if I've missed anything, you can add it yourself). Caveat: I do NOT have anywhere near all the trolley and interurban lines entered.
 #891330  by fredmcain
 
Otto Vondrak wrote: Most likely, there was to be one branch to feed coal to the power plant, and another branch possible to serve the State School or State Hospital to be built there.

-otto-
Otto and Forum,

Once again, I’d like to thank everyone on this forum who responded and provided information on the mystery of the NYC “Mohansic Branch”. I would like to write a few lines summarizing the issue.

I first stumbled upon the Mohansic Branch in the Summer of 1985 when I was driving along U.S. Route 202 from Brewster to Peekskill and stopped to stretch my legs at the Franklin D. Roosevelt State Park. I uncovered what looked to me like a mysterious and long abandoned RR right of way that went north to the edge of U.S. 202 and may have gone further north but I was unable to follow it any further than that.

This struck me as most mysterious since I was under the impression that I was in an area in which no railroads had ever operated that I was aware of. Had I realized that I was less than two miles away from the New York Central’s abandoned Putnam Division, this wouldn’t have seen so far-fetched. What I saw appeared to me to be an abandoned right of way “out in the middle of nowhere”. The best I could do was to theorize that it might have been some kind of industrial railway built to serve a dam or perhaps a logging or quarry operation. In a sense my theory was close but the facts of the branch’s history proved to be “freakier than fiction”. Had it not been for the Internet and this forum, I would have most likely never found the answer.

We know that the NYC built into the area I’d seen to serve a huge state hospital that was stillborn and never built. When you think about it, this is really quite bizarre. However, a couple of mysteries remain in the case which may never be quite completely solved.

For one, why was the roadbed extended to U.S. 202? (Or, rather, to the predecessor to U.S. 202 as the U.S. Numbered Highway System only dates to 1926). I, for one, like the theory that there were several spurs on the grounds planned or built to serve different sites. However, a related mystery is whether these spurs were merely graded or if they actually received ties and rails. And if, in fact, track was laid, was there ever any movement over it? Were construction materials brought in by rail and later removed again after the planned hospital was cancelled?

My guess – and it’s ONLY a guess – is that track was probably indeed laid. I say this because usually when the government plans to do something, they pay private companies to do it and sign a contract. Probably the State paid the NYC to do the work which later proved to be completely unnecessary. You know, an ironic way, I can see certain similarities between this case and a lot of things that happen today. Government waste and projects stopped due to fears of environmental damage. Hmmmmn. Sound familiar? Except *THIS* happened nearly 100 years ago in the second decade of the 20th Century! What’s that old saying about “nothing new under the sun”?

Another mystery is whether the track was actually built over what was later called Crom Pond or around it. We seem to have turned up conflicting indications but they probably did build a small trestle over it.

However, in conclusion, we can say this with absolute certainty: This was truly one of Westchester County’s “Forgotten Railroads”.

Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN