NYC Freight Timetables

Hi there
New to this forum so apologies in advance if I have incorrectly posted.
Hopefully one of you can point me in the right direction.

As the subject title says, I am after freight timetables ( through freight and local ) for the Adirondack Division of the NYC, in particular the Saranac Branch.
Of course beggars can't be choosers so I would take any and all information.
The period I am after is the late 1940's/early 1950's.
I understand the D&H ran freight service up in to Lake Placid until the mid-1940's, when it sold trackage to the NYC ??
Anyway, I am not after a "free ride" and am willing to reimburse costs for any available timetables.

Appreciate what advice you can offer.

Many thanks in advance

regards

I don't know if the NYC ever published freight schedules... So this would be a new one for me if they did.

Are you talking about Employee Timetables? They contained station information and special instructions, plus passenger schedules (if any), but most often did not list schedules of freight service. ETT's regularly show up on eBay for decent prices.

-otto-

Otto is correct. Employee timetables list mileahge, stations, etc., and first-class(passenger) trains but do not include freight trains.

I have a few NYCS freight timetables that list schedules for through freight trains, not local service. I know there were symbol freights to Montreal but I don't think there were any to Lake Placid. Perhaps a veteran employee will know more about this.

H.T. Guillaume, Director
NYCSHS

Some, if not all, Lines West ETT"s carried freight schedules at least for the 40's and 50's, if not earlier. The Lines East consolidated ETT's after 1957 i.e., Mohawk, St. Lawrence, Syracuse and so forth carried freight schedules at least for the main line and some of the branches. Not sure, without looking, the year that they started doing that. The Hudson Division did not have freight schedules listed in the ETT's, although they issued a separate freight schedule with each ETT change and at other times as required. If you go back to the 18880's as an example, some freight schedules were listed between New York and Buffalo in the old Main Line ETT's. The NYCRR published complete freight schedules but, they are about as scarce as hen's teeth.

Hi guys
Thank you all so much for your replies.
I have a copy of the Michael Kudish book "Railroads of the Adirondacks" which is very informative, but very little on freight operations.
From the very detailed maps contained in the book I can see, for example, there was quite a lot of rail side industries at Saranac Lake. I assume there would have been some freight service to these industries, so that is what I am after.
I have "googled" for NYC freight information for the Adirondacks, but as Jack pointed out, information is very scarce.
In any event I really appreciate all your feedback and will continue my search.
Do you think it worth my while contacting the NYC historical society?
Regards

The Canada Southern website has some freight timetables and schedules. I don't know if any of them include the Adirondack Division.

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/timetables.htm

Many if not all railroads issued some sort of a freight timetable. Most of the ones that I am aware of issued a symbol book.
The New York Central along with the New Haven, Boston and Maine and Jersey Central among others did this. Some of these
showed only through freight trains while others showed all freight operations both through and local. I have one or two
New York Central symbol books and so far as I can tell, only the through freight trains are listed here. On the New Haven
and others they showed both through and local freight trains.
The Adirondack Division had a through job between Selkirk and Montreal but that came off maybe in the early 50's and was
moved to the St. Lawrence up to Norwood, trackage rights on the Rutland to Malone and then the Adirondack to Adirondack
Junction and CPR from there to St. Luc. After the Rutland went on strike and was subsequently abandoned there was talk
that the New York Central would buy the stretch between Norwood and Malone to preserve their route but instead they ran
on the Canadian National from Massena to Huntington, Que. where they went back to the Adirondack Division.
Some of the New York Central employee timetables listed the wayfreight between Utica and Lake Placid but I haven't the
time right now to dig them out and see exactly what was what in this case.
Noel Weaver

Hi Noel

Thank you for that information.
Certainly gets me headed in the right direction.

That information re the employee timetables and wayfreight between Utica and Lake Placid would be extremely helpful.
If you manage to find some time in the future to look that up I would be very grateful.
Alternatively, if you could suggest another source where I could get the same information that would also be helpful.
Would not wish to take up your time if the task was particularly onerous.

In any event, many thanks for replying.

regards

NYCS Throught Freight Schedules issued 09-01-49 indicates:

MU-2 operates daily Monteral (Outremont) to Utica Lv. Monteral 10:00AM Day 1 Ar. Utica 12:40A Day 2 Takes all points on or via NYC.
Lake Clear Jct. - Drops Gabriels to Lake Kushaqua for Tupper Lake - Lake Placid Sub

UM-1 operates daily Utica to Monteral Lv. Utica 10:00AM Day 1 Ar. Monteral 1:00A Day 2 Takes Malone and beyond.
No Mention of work (pick-ups or drops) between Utica & Malone


This is a puzzeling arrangement, how did stations like Raybrook, Saranac Lake & Lake Placid receive traffic from Utica? By late 60's, after AEP had Adirondack severed at Lake Clear Jct., we served this territory out of Utical once a week. Traffic from the west was set of by DA-24 trains during the week and allowed to accumulate. Traffic from Selkirk & the east was set off by VD trains and allowed to accumulate until we went north on Saturdays.

urrengr2003 wrote: This is a puzzeling arrangement, how did stations like Raybrook, Saranac Lake & Lake Placid receive traffic from Utica? By late 60's, after AEP had Adirondack severed at Lake Clear Jct., we served this territory out of Utical once a week. Traffic from the west was set of by DA-24 trains during the week and allowed to accumulate. Traffic from Selkirk & the east was set off by VD trains and allowed to accumulate until we went north on Saturdays.

Firstly thank you for your reply.
That is the question that I am trying to answer myself.
But in the meantime, just for arguments sake, if there was a freight service from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid ( with stops at Saranac Lake & Ray Brook) what do you believe the symbol might be ?
TL or TLP ?

Thank you all once again for your input and advice

regards

As per the 1949 Through freight schedule:

UM-2 and MU-1 were through trains and did not do local work.

Trains AD-19, ZD-1 and YD-1 all dropped cars at Utica for the Adirondack division locals. Local trains UR-1 worked Forestport to Saranac Lake. UW-1 worked Gabriels & north.

trlinkcaso wrote:As per the 1949 Through freight schedule:

UM-2 and MU-1 were through trains and did not do local work.

Trains AD-19, ZD-1 and YD-1 all dropped cars at Utica for the Adirondack division locals. Local trains UR-1 worked Forestport to Saranac Lake. UW-1 worked Gabriels & north.

Hi there

I took a look at those freight schedule and found them very helpfull.
Thank you for the examples as there are quite a few to look through on the site.

Just curious, but hypothetically, do you think it feasible that UR-1 could continue on from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid as a local train with the same train symbol ?

Thank you again for the info.

From New York Central employee timetable no. 22 which was dated November 5, 1967 I found that they had a scheduled
second class train from Utica to Lake Placid on Sunday only departing Utica at 11:30 AM, Remsen North at 12:15 PM and
arriving Lake Placid at 10:00 PM. The return left Lake Placid on Monday only at 7:45 AM, Remsen North at 2:15 PM and
Utica at 3:00 PM.
Apparently this was done to avoid dealing with train orders at Lake Placid which did not have a train order office by this time. The only place on this line that was still open was Tupper Lake. By this time operation on this line was definately
down to once a week.
I'll check further when I can dig out some older timetables.
Noel Weaver

Hi Noel
Thank you again for this timetable information.
Really appreciate you taking making the effort to track it all down.

When you have the time, whatever information you can get for me in regard to freight operations into Lake Placid via Tupper Lake sometime around the early 1950's would be gratefully received.

Many thanks again

David

Noel Weaver wrote:From New York Central employee timetable no. 22 which was dated November 5, 1967 I found that they had a scheduled
second class train from Utica to Lake Placid on Sunday only departing Utica at 11:30 AM, Remsen North at 12:15 PM and
arriving Lake Placid at 10:00 PM. The return left Lake Placid on Monday only at 7:45 AM, Remsen North at 2:15 PM and
Utica at 3:00 PM.
Apparently this was done to avoid dealing with train orders at Lake Placid which did not have a train order office by this time. The only place on this line that was still open was Tupper Lake. By this time operation on this line was definately
down to once a week.
I'll check further when I can dig out some older timetables.
Noel Weaver

Hi Noel

Seasons Greetings.

Hope this finds you well.

Just wondering if you have had any luck digging out some older timetables.

Not being pushy as I am sure you haver better things to do with your time.

If the opportunity presents itself I would greatly appreciate what further information you can provide.

cheers