NYC and the Bronx Terminal Market

1) What was the contractual relation between the Bronx Terminal Market and the New York Central? In other words who owned the tracks shown?

2)There is no third rail shown in this photo. What types of locomotives were running around the yard during the periods of the 1930 – 1950’s? Unfortunately no locos are shown in this picture.

3)To the right of the photo you will notice a car-float apron which I assumed served this yard and others in the Bronx. Were there any other NYC car-float aprons on the Harlem River besides this one?

Since I believe that every post should get at least one reply, here's mine. I can only answer your last question: "Were there any other NYC car-float aprons on the Harlem River besides this one?"

There were 4 others south of the NY Central yards. In order going south was:

1. The Erie Railroad Harlem Station facility was located between East 149th and East 150th Street, Exterior Street and Harlem River in close proximity to the Bronx Terminal Market and the extremely busy Farmers Square.

2. The Lehigh Valley Railroad Bronx Terminal was located on the south side of East 149th Street and west of River Avenue.

3. The Harlem Transfer Company was located at Park Avenue and East 135th Street.

4. The Central Railroad of New Jersey (CRRNJ or CNJ) was located on the Harlem River and bordered by Third Avenue, Southern Boulevard and Lincoln Avenue.

The best website I have ever seen that describes these 4 facilities as well as many others can be found here:

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/IndustrialLocos.html

I have never found very much about the NY Central yards at the Bronx Terminal Market, but that area was developed in the 1930's and these four others came earlier. I have some photos taken near that area that I found on the internet, such as a photo of the Chateau Martin Wine cars. Send me a PM if you want, and we can discuss this topic further.

Larry Enwhycentral Weinberg

Thanks Larry Enwhycentral Weinberg for the information and rescuing this topic from obscurity. I am famillier with some of the other car float aprons you mentioned, but I appreciate the link which gives me more information. Did the car float transfer shown serve the Central’s Kingsbridge and Westchester yards as well? I Include another view of the Bronx Terminal.

Although I have no definitive knowledge about the subject, I'd doubt that the car float adjacent to the Bronx Terminal Market served either the Kingsbridge yard or the Westchester yard. Both of those yards were located some distance away and served purposes other than storing cars for the Bronx Terminal Market. Most likely the float bridge existed to service car floats that ferried cars from piers on the west (New Jersey) side of the Hudson River where they served the railroads that ran west towards the produce producing states. The Kingsbridge yard was located in between Spuyten Duyvil and the Putnam Divison junction at BN tower. For many years, it served a large automobile warehouse located south of 230th St. The large brick building still stands. I'm not sure what other purposes it served. The Westchester yard was located between Eastchester Road and Bronx & Pelham Parkway which was both east and north of the Terminal market, and, I believe, served only the New Haven railroad. In any event, I've read that by 1936 it was no longer in use.

The following excerpts are from a NY Times article written by Christopher Gray in 1994 titled "Streetscapes/Bronx Terminal Market; Trying to Duplicate the Little Flower's Success" which can be accessed at this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/08/reale ... ccess.html

"In 1935, a new get-tough Mayor, Fiorello H. LaGuardia, took over the failing Bronx Terminal Market and in seven months made the multimillion-dollar boondoggle useful and profitable for the first time.

But in the Bronx there was a fortress-like cold-storage warehouse on the Harlem River between 151st and 152d Streets, begun by Mayor John F. Hylan in 1917 and never finished, even though it had swallowed up $17 million by the time the Little Flower was elected. Between Oct. 1, 1934, and May 1, 1935, the city built a new complex just south of the huge Hylan structure: small two-story concrete buildings of simple design, constructed at a cost of $570,000.

Designed by Samuel Oxhandler with John D. Churchill and Albert W. Lewis, the buildings were originally painted light yellow. The next year, 1936, the market's flagship structure went up, a small, cubist-style polygon at 149th Street with "Bronx Terminal Market" in large relief in the concrete, a piquant landmark to every northbound motorist on the Major Deegan Expressway. This building was designed to serve as a bank and, upstairs, a hotel for farmers.

The complex had a float bridge (to bring in rail cars by barge), a spur of the New York Central Railroad and good road connections to the Triborough and George Washington Bridges. So popular were the new 3,000-square-foot units in the two-story buildings that 80 companies squeezed into the initial 48 spaces, firms like Andrew Casazza, bananas; Cherson & Moss, apples, and the Illinois Meat Company. The large covered farmer's market has since disappeared."

The subject of railroad marine operations is an interesting one and I have a tugboat and car float kits ready for my N scale layout if I ever get to build it! I only wish someone would make a float bridge kit in N scale.

Larry Enwhycentral Weinberg

Based on comments from former New York Central employees posted in a Yahoo Group-

I believe the first photo is actually the Erie Railroad Bronx Yard. This was served by carfloat.

The second photo is the New York Central yard at Bronx Terminal market.

I asked some of the former Central guys -- at least two of whom worked at Terminal Market -- if the Central had a carfloat dock there. They said no they did not. In addition, they told me there was no direct track connection at the Terminal Market between Erie and Central.

The power used in the steam era was probably the tri-power locomotives working off the third rail. By the early 1950s they used diesel locomotives.

Being somewhat familiar with the area around the Bronx Terminal Market, it is my belief that the car float bridge and apron in the first photo belongs either to the NY Central or to the market itself. It is about a half mile north of the Erie facility. See my diagram below.

Larry Enwhycentral Weinberg

Possibly the Market had it's own carfloat dock. I'm quite sure the Central guys said NYC never operated a float yard there.

I checked the message archives of the Yahoo Group I referenced earlier. A former Central employee stated -- and this is a first-person account (he was there as a yard clerk) -- the Terminal Market did have its own floatbridge and Central switched it. By then there was very little traffic coming off it though. In about 1960, the year he worked there, the only traffic he saw was California wine delivered by Erie. The Erie tug and carfloat placed the car (it was always a single load when he saw it) on the float lead by using a winch. No locomotive. The Erie crew attached a cable to the coupler on the car and used a winch located in the yard to drag the car off the float. They placed the car where Central could couple up to it and spot it in the Market.

I read this message when it was first posted -- I even responded to it! -- but I had absolutely no memory of it. Must be getting old.

Thanks all for your insight. It appears that the Bronx municipal market had the New York Central under contract to operate the yard a possibly install the yard tracks and construct the transfer apron. The apron looked similar to those used by the NYC on the Hudson River.

Here is an interesting link from HABS on car float aprons or transfer bridges (albeit PRR in Greenville) that gives an idea of their history and how these structures worked.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?h ... ammem_NrY1::

Gentlemen!

As I see my website was referenced (thank you for a kind words!), I can add the following:

The Website only covers "Offline" Terminal operations & float bridges. Meaning, if it wasn't connected to the mainland rail network, and access to that facility was by car float only, I cover it. Online terminals I left for other historians. As it turns out, there are more rail marine locations in the Bronx than the four terminals I cover and that had carfloat operations (and likewise operation of a float bridge). From north to south:

The Bronx Terminal Market "BTM", was served by New York Central Highbridge Line and therefore an online terminal.
The Bronx Terminal Market was owned by the City of New York, but rail service provided by New York Central. The float bridge could accept carfloat traffic from any of the railroads offering carfloat service in New York Harbor that had to expedited, but traffic destined for the Bronx Terminal Market was Car Load only, no LCL. Rail traffic appears to have been in similar operation as for the Brooklyn Wallabout Market: Wholesalers would contract with their railroad for through delivery of their carloads. Only difference between BTM and the Wallabout Market was Wallabout was Pier Station delivery only (until BEDT opened their float bridge on Clinton Avenue in 1935)

As the BTM was connected to Hudson Line, Mott Haven Yard, and likewise New York New Haven & Hartford via Melrose Junction, freight (perishables for the market) were brought in primarily via the overland routes. The float bridge appears to have built for redundacy. But please keep in mind, I am by far no expert on New York Central float bridge operations. The one to ask would be Thomas Flagg and if he can't answer you, he will direct you to someone who can. If you need his email, contact me via personal message and I'll reply with his email.

FYI: the float bridge at Bronx Terminal Market, was a French Patent, or "Electrically Operated, Overhead Suspension Contained Apron" type. It was built in 1925 but did not get activated until 1935 and was used until ca. 1975.

Continuing southeast, the other rail-marine locations located in the Bronx were:

Erie "Harlem Station" (offline) @ 149th Street

Lehigh Valley "Bronx Terminal" (offline) @ 149th Street

DLW / Erie / B&O "Harlem Transfer" (offline) @ Park Avenue / 135th Street

Central of New Jersey "Bronx Terminal" (offline) @ Third Avenue

New York New Haven & Hartford "Harlem River Yard" (online)

(Having reached the South Bronx we are heading north now)

New York New Haven & Hartford "Oak Point" (online)

The NYNH&H "Hell Gate Yard" and NYC'l "Port Morris Yard" did not have float bridges.

Specs, types and dates of service for all float bridges located throughout NY Harbor (regardless of type of service: online or oflline) can be read on one the newest pages to be added to the website:

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloc ... rlist.html

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help on in regards to BTM, but I had to 'draw the line' somewhere in regards to my research & coverage, and chose not to cover the Online Terminals in NY those being BTM, NYNH&H Oak Point, NYC'l 60th Street, NYC'l 33rd Street, LIRR LIC and NYNH&H / LIRR Bay Ridge - 65th St).

All the best!

Philip M. Goldstein

Philip thanks for that in depth information. Along the previous postings and your history background, we now have a good sense of how the operations worked at the BTM location.

For those who haven’t spent time on it, you have a first rate website. It’s interesting to also find out that the Harlem Transfer Company was controlled by the B&O.

Chuck AKA chnhrr

Philip I agree your site is absolutely first-rate. Thanks so much for maintaining it. It's a Godsend for serious researchers.

Chuck I don't see where the B&O is credited with controlling Harlem Transfer. At least in later years the company was a wholly-owned subsidiary of first Delaware, Lackawanna & Western and then Erie Lackawanna. In fact the information I saw on Philip's site indicates B&O only used the Bronx yard of HRT for a few years around the turn-of-the-century. What did I miss?

The yard was apparently built for the Erie Railroad but there also seems to be some mystery there.

I think it's well-established that the yard was designed by the Lehigh Valley's Chief Engineer Walter Berg. But why would the Chief Engineer of the LV be designing yards for Erie? I wonder if there isn't a bit more to this story than is known even now?

Tommy you’re right. I misinterpreted Phillip's listing as the company and not the yard. The Lackawanna did take controlling interest early on. Sometimes a heavy dinner, red wine and late evening postings don’t help me in my interpretation process.

‘DLW / Erie / B&O "Harlem Transfer" (offline) @ Park Avenue / 135th Street’

Chuck

I've just joined this forum so I'm a bit late, but this topic needs some response.

First, in regard to the photos. They are obviously of the same facility. The building to the left in the second photo is the one to the left in the second photo.

As for ownership, I have in front of me the NYC sidetrack sketches for 1-1-63. They show that all of the tracks from under "MACOMBS DAM BRIDGE" to the east as private track. NYC owned only the track from High Bridge yard to the bridge.

MAlcolm LAughlin

mlaughlinnyc wrote:
As for ownership, I have in front of me the NYC sidetrack sketches for 1-1-63. They show that all of the tracks from under "MACOMBS DAM BRIDGE" to the east as private track. NYC owned only the track from High Bridge yard to the bridge.

MAlcolm LAughlin

Mr. Luaghlin

Is there any indication on the sketches who owned the remaining tracks?

Chuck