• NYA to Atlantic Ave terminal?

  • Discussion related to NYAR operations on Long Island. Official web site can be found here: www.anacostia.com/nyar/nyar.html. Also includes discussion related to NYNJ Rail, the carfloat operation successor to New York Cross Harbor that connects with NYAR.
Discussion related to NYAR operations on Long Island. Official web site can be found here: www.anacostia.com/nyar/nyar.html. Also includes discussion related to NYNJ Rail, the carfloat operation successor to New York Cross Harbor that connects with NYAR.
  by hrfcarl
I am sure this has been asked before, so please forgive the newbie.

Lets say the mall above the LIRR Atlantic Ave terminal wants to use NYA service for deliveries or waste removal, could the engines fit on track 1 at the terminal and in the tunnels on that branch? If yes, could a tunnel connect the Atlantic branch to Bay Ridge branch at/near East NY LIRR station be built so these freght trains would not have to go thru Jamica?

  by DogBert
before everyone chimes in and says 'it'd never happen' (which it wouldn't) - I'm sure some of the old timers can fill in the blanks but LIRR did run freight to warehouse near there. Not sure when service ended but if I recall it right from what I read, the trains would come out of holban, down the old rockaway line, and into the atlantic av tunnel at the connect that was located north of the old ozone park station. all of that is abandoned now though.

There may have once been a ramp at ENY to connect the two lines but that probably ended with aby ridge passenger service ages ago. it'd cost way too much to put something like that back in.

  by emfinite
The only engines permitted in that tunnel are the SW1001s and they wouldn't use them down there because theres no speed control on the NYAR units.

  by hrfcarl
Like I said, I am a newbie, so I have a lot to learn.

Size wise, can all the NYA engines and freight cars fit in the tunnel and terminal at Atlantic Ave? If yes, ignoring the speed control issue, why are some engines permitted in this tunnel while other are not?


  by jayrmli
Aside from the engine issue, most freight cars are bigger and weight more and wouldn't fit in the tunnels.

Also, the freight concession NYAR has with the MTA is only for certain branches of the LIRR system, not the whole thing. The Flatbush Avenue line is not included.


  by krispy
hrfcarl and Dogbert, if you're curious about detailed facts about the way the freight was done on the Atlantic Branch, do a search for posts by "DukeoQ" as he used to be on those runs. I'm not sure how far back the search feature goes with the various times this website was restarted, but he had some outstanding posts about freight operations. Look also at the usual websites, such as Steve's http://www.trainsarefun.com/ and Art's http://www.arrts-arrchives.com/

Basically freight ran on today's 10 and 11 track from Holban/Hillside thru Hall and Jay to Dunton to the Westward and Eastward Brooklyn Freight tracks (aka "the Hump" and "the Freight" tracks) down the Avenue. ENY had at one time employee access down to the Bay Ridge Branch, but that's it. They ran either to Flatbush Avenue station, where there was a yard branching off of today's 1 track, or to Van yard, where a track ran up from the yard to ground level to the old meat houses. I believe there may have been a siding to the old Armory at the mouth of the tunnel west of Nostrand also. I can only imagine how that (a switcher drilling out old EX yard) must have smoked out Flatbush and the tunnels, especially in the summer...

Dogbert mentioned the old Rockaway Beach line, and freights could also enter the Atlantic Branch at Woodhaven, and run up the RB line to Glendale on the Lower Montauk and from there to Pond.
  by hrfcarl
Especially the http://www.arrts-arrchives.com. A had found that site once before, but lost it when I had to reinstall after a bad computer virus. I remember seeing those pics of the freight cars at the meat houses but not how they came out of the yard. I will do a search of "DukeoQ".

As to the size of the freight trains: Only switcher size engines fit in those tunnels? Older style freight cars can fit, but not the new larger frieght cars or container carriers?

Thanks again.

  by jayrmli
Not sure if they ever did it, but they could have also used the Fresh Pond-Rockaway Branch-Flatbush Avenue Route with DD1s up until third rail was removed (and the DD1's retired). The Lower Montauk was electrified between Pond and the Rockaway Line for this routing.

  by hrfcarl
"...the Fresh Pond-Rockaway Branch-Flatbush Avenue Route..."

I know the Rockaway Branch & Atlantic Ave Branch cross at Woodhaven with connecting stations for passengers (have seen Woodhaven station riding LIRR), but what I have never been sure of is if the two branches actually had tracks connecting the two lines as well? Riding the LIRR out of Atlantic Ave heading east towards Jamica, I have noticed what looked like tunnels (too dark to see tracks) branching off to the right before the old Woodhaven station, are those where the connector tracks to the elevated Rockaway Branch would have been? If this connection did exist, does anyone have or know a link to a pic/map that shows this connection?


  by krispy
Try mapquest or Google maps

http://www.google.com/maps?q=Woodhaven, ... &z=17&om=1

You may have to piece that together to get it to work, I'm too tired to mess with tinyurl (fingers ain't working too well after last night too :wink: ) but it should bring you on where the old RB line crosses Atlantic Ave, and observe the line of schoolbuses that curve to the south, there's your connecting track. There was a interlocking machine in the old ticket office in the below ground station (one of the rare pistol-grip machines) and it worked with a tower above ground (now long gone)visible in a book called "Change at Ozone Park". The author's name escapes me, but it's fairly recent and you should find it in one of the libraries around here. It should answer all of your questions - Anyone know if the spider is still up there?

It's amazing on what you can see on those Google maps. Drag the map North and you'll see still the connecting tracks Jay mentioned, despite the efforts of the folks living in that curved apartment building to remove all trace of the first leg of the connecting track. The second leg going from 1 Montauk to 2 RB was removed first long ago, (I could be mistaken) but it's still visible even now.
  by hrfcarl
You are right, it is amazing what these maps show. I am also amazed at how much of the ROW for the Rockaway Branch lookes undeveloped. Thanks.

  by jayrmli
The book Krispy is referring to is Change at Ozone Park by Herbert George. It's out of print, but I highly recommend getting it if you can find a copy.


  by b&p rupture
krispy wrote: Anyone know if the spider is still up there?
No. Remnants of it were on the old roadbed last time I was on the A train in the area, maybe two years ago now.

I too recommend looking at "Change at Ozone Park" To any one curious about LIRR in the area of the Roackaway Branch.
  by NYRailman
Wow, this comment comes long after the fact (really sorry about that!) - to hrfcarl, yes there once was a connection from the Bay Ridge Branch to the Atlantic Av to Woodhaven Branch. It was a real long time ago back in the early 1900's probably around up to the 1920's to 30's. There was a cut-off just before the East NY station from the Bay Ridge Branch that sloped upwards and curved to the east once it reached street level to merge with the East-bound ROW just east of the station. At the time, the East NY LIRR station was ground level on Atlantic Avenue and didn't have an overpass like it does now. Once they merged to make a 3 or 4 track configuration, the line became elevated above street level for most of the way thru East New York (which was home to a huge Train Yard around the Atkins St area in the eastern most part of the neighborhood - no traces remain now) towards Long Island. Of course it's the opposite now in that there is an overpass for Traffic above the line & the trains run underground after the station once the grade elimination was done. There are pictures of this online if you go the LIRR's history website. Just thought I'd mention this just in case you were still curious about it. I also know some of the history on the old Rockaway Branch as one of my uncles used to live in the Rockaways and rode the LIRR to work at the Phone company in Manhattan back in those days. He was probably the "1st" or one of the first African-American persons to move his family to the Rockaways back in the 1940's (he resided in Arverne up to 6.5 years ago until he relocated to the Carolinas). He remembers the Branch very well & has shared many interesting stories with me on his many commutes. He's talked about catching the Train at Rego Park Station from the NY Subway occasionally whenever there was a problem with LIRR service from Penn Station Manhattan. And the Parkside, Bklyn Manor, Woodhaven & Ozone Park Stations where the change-over usually happened from the Platform where they "stacked" trains. The line itself was a loop service in that they could run trains into the Rockaways from the old Branch line & also from the ROW that diverted from the Montauk Branch in Valley Stream.