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  • Not the Best of Times

  • For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.
For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.

Moderator: Jeff Smith

 #962137  by 2nd trick op
 
For a variety of reasos, the three years that have passed since the financial meltdown of 2008 haven't been particularly kind to the ferro-equine fraternity,

What might appear to be the most obvious symptom, a general decline in economic, and thereby, railroad activity, doesn't seem to be the case this time around, particularly when compared to the downturns of 1958 (which hastened the demise of steam) and 1970 (which put an end to a lot of branch lines, local freight, Alco and other "orphan" diesels, and eventually, private passenger service tself).

For those of us given a mere nibble of those times. and at an age where we were too young to fully understand the social and economic forces impelling us toward them, the temptation to wallow in the past is great, as the boomlet in "classic" railfand publications and sites dedicated to "fallen flag" rail entities no longer in operation will attest.

And at the other end of the spectrum lies what I'll characterize, without rancor, as the "HSR generation" -- young, heavily exposed to the electronic media from the earliest age, holding great faith in technology, but not familiar with a time when the industry was much less concentrated and, while never fully insulated from the demands of the state, enoying both a greater degree of autonomy and comfortable with the knowledge that the public, or at least the male half of it, posessed a somewhat deeper understanding of the basic structure of the system and a somewhat deeper exposure to it in daily life.

As a nearly-forgotten character actor named Strother Martin put it over forty years ago, "What we got here is a failure to communicate."

My point being, that despite the emergence of an apparent schism among rail hobbyists, the basic economic factors which dictate the superiority of rail vs other modes of transport through efficiency measures alone are particularly strong at this point in time. We are in no danger of being relegated, like Civil War buffs, to the status of a group with a limited source of raw material.

As a member of that faction which, due to the simple realities of age, Is oriented toward a finer appreciation of the multiple quantum shifts within the industry over the six decades for which I've been here, I want to offer only one broad suggestion to the people who will take our place: Please don't fall victim to the belief that only the public sector can effect meaningful change within our common interest, and please take a closer interest in the process by which we got here.

As demonstrated by, for example, the development of personal computer, major strides in the advancement of our daily existence have sometimes arisen from small inprovements which found their way into the mainsteam via combination of obvious suitability and the weight of numbers, and there is no reason why some similar trend could not develop within an economic sector favored with such a stromg advantage as our favorite.

As has been observed so often as to become apochryphal in its origins, "nothing is permanent except change". The simple autonomy of the private vehicle makes it certain that something will evolve that will limit the prospects of the HSR dream, but there's plenty of time (and room) for the natural efficiencies of rail travel to claim a substantial portion of the intermediate-distance market. As observed many times before, the positive solution, the American solution, is not to use illegitimate power to fight over a dwindling supply of benefit, but to find a way to create more of it for all.
Last edited by 2nd trick op on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #962407  by Jersey_Mike
 
For those interested in historic preservation like myself economic downturns are usually a godsend because capitol budgets are slashed and "the old stuff" gets to remain in service longer. Unfortunately this time around rising fuel prices has spurred continued demand for capacity expansion on the freight side and the Stimulus funding has been destroying old infrastructure at an unprecedented clip on the public passenger operation side. One of the greatest side effects of the 1970's rail transport and economic meltdown was that extended the service life of equipment during and prior to the 1950's until about 1990. Unfortunately I was too young to really take advantage of that last Indian Summer, but this time around the opportunity is being completely lost and the equipment put into service in the 1960's, 70's and even 80's is being put out to pasture way ahead of its time. Remember, the economic conditions of the 70's extended the lives of the GG-1s into the 1980's. Had history repeated itself the financial crisis should have left us with the AEM-7s until 2025.
 #963794  by neroden
 
2nd trick op wrote: As a member of that faction which, due to the simple realities of age, Is oriented toward a finer appreciation of the multiple quantum shifts within the industry over the six decades for which I've been here, I want to offer only one broad suggestion to the people who will take our place: Please don't fall victim to the belief that only the public sector can effect meaningful change within our common interest, and please take a closer interest in the process by which we got here.
Sorry. ROW. It's only possible to get good ROW through eminent domain, so only the public sector can effect meaningful change when it comes to ROW. I have indeed studied the history. The period when railways absolutely had to get agreement from every single property owner... gives us the terrible alignments of New England. I will note that even the so-called "private" automobile rides almost entirely on roads which either used eminent domain to get their ROW, or were built during the initial settlement of the given subdivision on greenfields. (Though I live in that rare thing, an area where some of the roads are old horse trails with ROW originally established by use and tradition under common law... the routes sure aren't fast or direct.) Even sidewalks are built with eminent domain.

Only the public sector can build long-distance transportation corridors, though it can delegate that duty to the private sector if it wants to give quasi-governmental powers to private companies, as the federal government did in the 19th century. Indeed, the private freight railroads still know this -- whenever they need new linear ROW, they go hat in hand to the government. Heritage railways attempting to reassemble broken-up ROW of only a few miles without eminent domain find that it takes 30 years or more.

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you say.
 #964329  by 2nd trick op
 
The evolution of the principle of eminent domain took a new turn a half-dozen-or-so years ago when the taking of property for private, rather than public redevelopment found its way to the U S Supreme Court in a Connecticut case. A link to our discussion on that (the heart of which is on the second page of the thread) is provided below.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... omain+2005

Eminent domain, like military conscription, is one of those areas where the state is (in theory) given almost carte blanche to interfere with the individual's right to do as he wishes with his own property. As such it steps hard on a "hot button" of those of us with strong libertarian beliefs. The combination of a belief system which shows no regard for the "target" and the desire for influence for the politically-connected, whether via the follies depicted in the pages of Atlas Shrugged or the very-real looting of Jewish holdings (objekte) by the Nazis in the 1930's, ought to be very unsettling

How far this might go in a tested, fully-participatory democratic economy would be (at this point, anyway) a matter of conjecture. And the growth of workable intermediate distance HSR systems might one day encourage political hacks to turn their greedy eyes and grabby hands toward very valuable rail property. what happens, for example, if in twenty years, New York State wants to seriously upgrade the Water Level Route, and divert a large amout of freight traffic via NS former Erie main?

Whether the principle of "open access" can be introduced without a serious addtional infringement on private property rights remains to be seen. Because, as previously demonstrated, the lure of the state's monopoly on the use of force is addictive. A little of such interference is like a little pregnancy...or a little malignancy.
 #968770  by Otto Vondrak
 
Maybe this discussion belongs in Railroad Museums, Railroad Tourist Lines, and Railroad Historical Organizations:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=36

-otto-
 #977799  by Tommy Meehan
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:One of the greatest side effects of the 1970's rail transport and economic meltdown was that extended the service life of equipment during and prior to the 1950's until about 1990.
If you're talking about locomotives, I would say yes and no, I guess depending on where you lived..

Growing up in the NY City area by 1970 most of the freight power I saw on a regular basis was either late first-generation (the New Haven's E33 ex-VGN motors) or decidedly second-generation: Penn Central, EL and even CNJ.

I believe the reduced crew size killed cab units in freight service even by 1970. They were very rare.

The passenger service power was mostly new by 1972: the GP40Ps on CNJ; U34CH on EL; GP-38-2s on LIRR. The GG1s hung around a while in Amtrak and NJDOT service and the MTA took title to about fifty FL9s. But the Gs were all gone by the mid-1980s. Praise the MTA, Metro-North remained all FL-9 until about 1996! :)

It's true most of the USRA spinoffs in 1976 got started with lots of first generation power. So for that reason the unstable economic climate of the seventies did preserve some older units, Geeps and RS3s and the like. Only there weren't too many short lines where I lived.
 #1011184  by Jeff Smith
 
Otto Vondrak wrote:Maybe this discussion belongs in Railroad Museums, Railroad Tourist Lines, and Railroad Historical Organizations:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=36

-otto-
Not quite sure how it fits with tourist organizations or historical societies. Although it covers history of railroads, it's not really about societies, etc.

For now, I've moved it to General Class I discussion. Any other suggestions?
 #1011318  by 2nd trick op
 
The change suits me just fine:

Like a couple of other senior members here, I find it disheartening that despite the industry's return, not merely to prosperity, but to greater recognition of its role within our society, nothing has quite replaced the exchange of ideas and opnions that took place in the pages of Trains at the high points of David Morgan's stewardship. The forums here came close, for a time, and I see no reason why that role cannot, in fact will not, be reprised when circumstances encourage it.

"National Train Day" might be catchy, but the point remains, it's geared to the "flower picker" who gets their exposue to the industry through a visit to a museum, or possibly, patronage of a commuter system. The industry itself chooses to maintain a low profile for reasons linked to our ongoing political polarization, but just as in within the "long sleep" of 1945-1985, there remains within a huge entreprenurial potential -- if it can be awakened.