North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

I do take your point, Gilbert, and didn't mean my comment on interior traffic to contradict it. It's just something else I'm interested in.

The Minnesota state rail plan does include Fargo/Moorhead MN service as "Phase I". The Borealis and the Duluth service that is moving towards launch were also Phase I, but so were Mankato, Eau Claire and Albert Lea, so it's not exactly a guarantee that progress will come. (Also, St. Cloud, MN, but St. Cloud is on the route to Fargo, so it's not really different. I'm not clear why it was included separately in the plan.)

ICYMI
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/e1 ... 905d0dad16

and specific to what is now referred to as Big Sky North Coast Corridor
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/e1 ... f-n-aI6XoB

ryanwc wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 9:03 am Something this morning made me finally look at the map of the North Coast Hiawatha vs. Empire Builder, and omg how did we wind up with the EB instead of the NCH? The EB goes nowhere except Glacier. It misses all the population in both North Dakota and Montana. Was / is the route that much faster? Or was the NCH host that much less passenger friendly back then. I vote not for adding NCH but for replacing EB with NCH.

I believe a big piece of this had to do with the planned downgrade of the ex-NP route. If you recall around 1985 they leased it out to the MRL and I think MRL took it dark, or something less than CTC. Essentially it was not passenger-ready, while the ex-GN route was ready for higher speeds, intermodals, passengers, etc...

I don't know why one was chosen over the other, perhaps grades, curves, etc...?

Just another of the end to end only thinking. IMO both the EB and NCH were and are needed due to the extreme weather.

Vincent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:11 pm I think the EB routing decision was largely based on whether to go over Stevens Pass or Stampede Pass. If you compare the track charts, I think you will see that Stampede has lots of twists, turns and plenty of elevation gains and losses that make railroading difficult between Seattle and Spokane. Stevens Pass is much straighter and the elevation gain/loss along the route is "smoother" (for lack of a better technical turn). Stampede Pass was even closed for a few years after Amtrak came into existence (I don't remember exactly when). BN/BNSF also spun off the NCH line in MT to MRL. I think BN decided to only maintain one route between Seattle and Spokane and the EB was forced to adjust.

While I understand the rest of the issues with the NP route, as regards your statement regarding the two Cascades passes, couldn't they have used the NP west as far as Spokane and then switched to the current route the rest of the way? I assume the two have an appropriate junction in Spokane. But, again, there were the noted other issues that made the NP route unattractive at the time.

Mr. Norman, I regret to say that, being from Maine, the only thing I know about your MILW is that, when I played Rail Baron in college (against an inveterate cheater), it was the slow route going west.

BSPRA just retained David Evans and Associates for Corridor ID Program support - https://www.einpresswire.com/article/73 ... am-support

Worry over skipping Helena for Butte: https://montanafreepress.org/2024/07/29 ... ail-route/

Helena could be passed up by passenger rail route

...
The Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority, along with the Federal Railroad Administration, is leading the project to restore the North Coast Hiawatha route and has garnered the support of route-affected counties across southern Montana. Lewis and Clark County is not one of them, despite giving $10,000 to the effort in both 2021 and 2022.

Although the rail authority lists Helena as a preferred stop for the project, an alternate route would bring the railway south to Butte before continuing west through Missoula and east through Billings.
...

Anyone who has been to Homestake Pass "lately" will have something to say about the "options"

Drove by Homestake Pass a couple of years ago, almost 50 years since the last time I rode a train there. What remains is in very rough shape. While rails remained on what I saw, it was clear that the combination of 3% grades and very sharp curves wouldn't make this a very desirable route. Even NP routed the Western Star via Helena (and easier grades) rather than serve Butte in the overnight hours.

YES, I saw with my own eyes last year!!

M. Allouette, Mainstreeter vice Western Star.

Though interestingly, in the Montana Rail Plan, there is class I BNSF track from the western junction (of the Butte and Helena routes) up to what looks like the top of the pass. The entire Helena route is Class II. Could a cost issue be pushing Butte to the fore?

Butte; 1920 population: 41611: 2020: 34573

When I was on assignment there, I was just as glad to "move it on" to Missoula or Avery, ID. If it weren't for the paper processing odors, I'd say that has to be one of the most attractive municipalities in Montana.

>Butte; 1920 population: 41611: 2020: 34573

White flight to the suburbs?

Just joking, folks, calm down.

Actually, looking something up, not only is that impossible, but the trend is worse than it looks. Butte became a consolidated city/county in 1977, and the figure cited by Gilbert is for that consolidated area. Butte itself was already down to 23,000 by 1970!

It's hard for a population to fall that low at the junction of two interstates. Though I imagine N-S interstates in Montana don't carry that much traffic.

ryanwc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:42 pm >Butte; 1920 population: 41611: 2020: 34573

White flight to the suburbs?

Just joking, folks, calm down.

Actually, looking something up, not only is that impossible, but the trend is worse than it looks. Butte became a consolidated city/county in 1977, and the figure cited by Gilbert is for that consolidated area. Butte itself was already down to 23,000 by 1970!

It's hard for a population to fall that low at the junction of two interstates. Though I imagine N-S interstates in Montana don't carry that much traffic.

Two observations from my one brief drive through Butte in the early 90's: the giant fluorescent green pit in the middle of the city may contribute to its lack of desirability, and while I-15 in Montana may not hit any major US municipalities, it is the truck route to Calgary and Edmonton. So it gets traffic, although not of the type that might be willing to relocate.