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  • North Alexander/. DL&W, NYC and Erie " Junction "

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

 #1596112  by Fireman43
 
I use the word Junction loosely to try and describe this location on Old Creek Road with my questions.
I know this place is referenced on a few other threads dating back to 2015 - 2019 and but never had a chance to visit except by the sites previous pictures and Sat views.
As you had noted - those previous pictures were posted when the full foliage obscured the area.
Had chance a few weeks ago to finally visit the area when no leaves were out and was amazed the size of the ROW abutments and numerous drainage structures that were clearly visible. As it was raining I didn't stop to take pictures - my loss as when I again plan to go that way in two weeks I think my window of opportunity for good shots may be passed when leaves out.
What I noted was how close the ROW of the Erie and NYC were to each other along Old Creek Road as they passed beneath the DL&W. Looked like no more than 30'.
In regards to abandonment in this area , if my memory is even close.
NYC - 1930's ?
DL&W - 1980ish ? but which leg -- East or West?
Erie - ???
Many thanks for correcting me .

Ill try and grab what pictures I can get in 2 weeks.

Mark
 #1596236  by charlie6017
 
Fireman43 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:26 pm I use the word Junction loosely to try and describe this location on Old Creek Road with my questions.
I know this place is referenced on a few other threads dating back to 2015 - 2019 and but never had a chance to visit except by the sites previous pictures and Sat views.
As you had noted - those previous pictures were posted when the full foliage obscured the area.
Had chance a few weeks ago to finally visit the area when no leaves were out and was amazed the size of the ROW abutments and numerous drainage structures that were clearly visible. As it was raining I didn't stop to take pictures - my loss as when I again plan to go that way in two weeks I think my window of opportunity for good shots may be passed when leaves out.
What I noted was how close the ROW of the Erie and NYC were to each other along Old Creek Road as they passed beneath the DL&W. Looked like no more than 30'.
In regards to abandonment in this area , if my memory is even close.
NYC - 1930's ?
DL&W - 1980ish ? but which leg -- East or West?
Erie - ???
Many thanks for correcting me .

Ill try and grab what pictures I can get in 2 weeks.

Mark
The NYC branch parallel to the Erie from Attica to Batavia was abandoned in 1937.

The DL&W from the junction east to Greigsville was in use until 1985 and used by the D&H to serve the Retsof salt mine. DL&W west of the junction to Depew was abandoned/torn out in the early to mid 1960's, I believe.

Charlie
 #1596241  by Fireman43
 
Thanks,
I have to write those dates down as like Elvis used to say “I get all messed up “
I know he actually said shook up but ‘messed up’ suits me better .

Ok more question:
In regards to the parallel Erie- when it would have gone all the way to Batavia -would that have been active as same time as this NYC line ?
As the DL&W is built over those two lines just got to thinking both might have been active north of that point.

( should I have visions of both racing along like the old races between trolleys and rail? )
Mark
 #1596281  by TB Diamond
 
The DL&W North Alexander-Ray, 3.7 miles, abandoned in 1964.
Ray-East Lancaster, 16.7 miles, abandoned in 1963.
East Lancaster-Lancaster, 1.7 miles, abandoned in 1963.

The Erie Rochester Branch, North Alexander-Batavia, 5.1 miles, was abandoned on April 1, 1976 upon the advent of ConRail.
 #1596309  by Fireman43
 
In regards to you mentioning Ray, I was expecting to see some past evidence of railroad activity there at Hickox Rd as I looked via Sat view and looking at my copy of 1974 NYS DOT Abandoned ROW nothing is noted by the writers .

What would have made that spot a termination of abandonment east and west?
Mark
 #1596591  by Matt Langworthy
 
I looked at the aerial view of Ray on Bing Maps. There is cluster of buildings next to the DL&W ROW at Hickox Rd. Perhaps there was a feed mill or fertilizer dealer there back in the the DL&W/early EL era?

In a weird coincidence, a weak tornado hit Alexander two night ago and the damage track stopped near the former Erie ROW!
 #1597270  by ctclark1
 
Fireman43 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:40 am Ok more question:
In regards to the parallel Erie- when it would have gone all the way to Batavia -would that have been active as same time as this NYC line ?
As the DL&W is built over those two lines just got to thinking both might have been active north of that point.
As I understand it, the original line between Batavia and Attica was built by the Tonawanda Railroad in the 1840s. This coincided with the Attica & Buffalo RR building between, you guessed it, Attica & Buffalo.
Less than a decade later the A&B and the Tonawanda had merged into the Buffalo & Rochester RR, and built the more direct connection from Batavia to Buffalo that we know today as part of the NYC Water Level Route. In the 1850s the B&R sold the line from Buffalo to Attica to what would eventually become part of the Erie system (through leases and mergers), but the B&R kept the original Batavia to Attica branch, and was eventually absorbed into the NYC. I'm not sure when the Erie built the parallel line to Batavia, honestly, but I'd guess it wasn't long after the purchase of the line.

The New York, Lackawanna and Western was built in the early 1880s, so I'm fairly certain both lines were active at that point, although it is also possible that the Erie's line was built later, with the overpass extended to accommodate, which might be why the NYC and Erie lines run so close together at that point.

I also don't know if the connection between the Erie and DL&W existed prior to or if it was a direct result of the joint operation agreement that commenced prior to the official merger.

Please note that I could be wrong in part or all of this, it's just my recollection and understanding of the research I've done in the past.
 #1597349  by Fireman43
 
Great info - thanks
Did get a chance to visit for a more detailed look but leaves already out .
A few pics I was able to snap again interesting how close the Erie and NYC ran north and south.
More than a few companion culverts along the way .
Drainage ditch along Old Creek road prevented me from venturing into the west side but appears 4 abutments used for the DL&W as it went over the road,
Erie and the NYC.
A number of these parallel culverts for the Erie and NYC.
These pics have been previously been posted but I still think pretty neat.
Image

Looking East DL&W

Image

Looking west I do believe a third abutment further in

Image

Looking north east as the DL&W line was brought down to catch the old Erie heading south.
Image

Stonehenge

Image

Final question may have been previously explained but when the DL&W was cut off at this location and connected to the Erie heading south , what freight would have been carried?
Was it salt from Restof?

Mark
 #1597378  by Fireman43
 
I enjoyed those two articles you posted .
As I read the history of the ups and downs of trying to get these railroads built Im always amazed the determination these guys had and the physical obstacles faced in building the ROW’s. Never gave up.

Similar to the battles faced by those building the Erie Canal through swamps, solid rock and valleys.
I just finished another book “Stars in the Water” that described to same determination against the odds.

Again literally built by wheelbarrows and equipment powered by men and horses.