NLX Northern Lights Express HSR MN Duluth-Twin Cities

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:20 pm You could go through Pokegama yard, but then you cut out Superior (and any hope of Wisconsin funding) and have to deal with CN, axle counts, dispatching, etc... not fun.

Worth nothing about the area: Duluth accurately views themselves as the wealthy cousin to the scruffy Superior. This is reflected in the available stores and amenities, as well as home prices and rents. If the train solidly served downtown Superior, Wisconsin might be more apt to give good funding to this operation, as it would enhance commerce in Superior.

If there's hope of Wisconsin funding, I think your suggestion of a Superior terminus is great, and potentially palatable to Minnesota legislators.

Googling, I find Superior's mayor arguing for Wisconsin funding, but no sign of a sign-off from Dem. Governor Evers, let alone from the legislature which zeroed out 2nd Empire Builder funding from the Evers budget proposal.

(Or did they? Now I'm confused and don't want to spread misinfo. The GOP dominated legislature did approve Chgo-Milwaukee funding, but lowered the overall by $10 million. Was that $10 million related to the Milwaukee-Twin Cities segment?)

What's a movable bridge cost these days?

ryanch wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:37 pmWhat's a movable bridge cost these days?

12 years back, Amtrak built a new two-track vertical-lift bridge in Connecticut for $76 million. Figure you could do the same in Duluth Harbor for maybe $50 million (adjusted for inflation), for a single-track bridge built offsite with in-place abutments and floated into place under the I-535 bridge. Bonus points if you can do the entire replacement during the winter when the harbor is closed.

You could, but that’s a lot of bridge for 1-2x trains. You also have to look at the other stakeholders. Does BN want a bridge there? Is there space for approach tracks on either side? Is Rice Point still capable of moving through trains expediently? How about boat traffic? It’s quite a busy harbor (plenty of boat nerds there).

I’m not saying no, but the practical side is a bit lacking.

The idea of spending $50 million to allow people to go what is likely 5 minutes away by car, in a setting where virtually everyone has a car available at that end ... I'd much rather sell Minnesota on the idea that it's cheaper to just terminate in Superior.

Or let the train take the long way around, since presumably that extra 15 minutes isn't going to be the deciding factor in adding a frequency with the same equipment.

I was just curious, though. Glad to have a rough estimate of the cost.

Money would be better spent on a surburban terminal, with extensive Thruway bus connections. Cut out the slow town running , and the idea of a central terminal is diminished in sprawling cities , with minimal public transit.
Could the Duluth train be a extension of the 2nd Chicago-MSP train? Leave Chicago 8 .am MSP around 4pm , Duluth suburb around 8. Or leave Chicago an hour earlier, and squeeze in a return Duluth -MSP trip in the evening.

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:09 pm Money would be better spent on a surburban terminal, with extensive Thruway bus connections. Cut out the slow town running , and the idea of a central terminal is diminished in sprawling cities , with minimal public transit.
Could the Duluth train be a extension of the 2nd Chicago-MSP train? Leave Chicago 8 .am MSP around 4pm , Duluth suburb around 8. Or leave Chicago an hour earlier, and squeeze in a return Duluth -MSP trip in the evening.

A train leaving Chicago at 7 am would depart St. Paul around 10 hours later, around 5 pm. I-35 is 152 miles north of St. Paul, the train route would be slightly longer as it is not as direct as the freeway. Assuming around 45 mph average speeds, that's an additional 3 to 4 hours away, let's suggest around a 9 pm arrival in Duluth or Superior. With another 8 hour elapse time for the onboard service crew turnover, it's 5 am at the earliest for the return departure. I'm would again wait for a 7 am departure for the return trip. This means Amtrak would have to find two train sets to make this all day trip and return the next day. I do not see any advantages of leaving Chicago an hour earlier or later, you are not going to be able to return back during daylight hours anyways.

Time, distance, and speeds can be calculated, why am I always the one having to point out such unrealistic scheduling?

I was meaning a return trip from Duluth to MSP, not Ch icago. I was thinking 2 trainsets would cover the Duluth and Chicago trains, rather than 2 for Chicago, and one for Duluth.
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David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:39 pm I was meaning a return trip from Duluth to MSP, not Ch icago. I was thinking 2 trainsets would cover the Duluth and Chicago trains, rather than 2 for Chicago, and one for Duluth.
l

So, something like:
Trainset 1
8a dep Chicago
4p arr St. Paul
7p arr Duluth dep 7:30p
10:30p arr St. Paul (layover)

8a dep St. Paul
11a arr Duluth dep 11:30a
2:30p arr St. Paul
10:30p arr Chicago

Trainset 2
8a dep St. Paul
11a arr Duluth dep 11:30a
2:30p arr St. Paul
10:30p arr Chicago

8a dep Chicago
4p arr St. Paul
7p arr Duluth dep 7:30p
10:30p arr St. Paul (layover)

In addition to the additional CHI-MSP turn and the Empire Builder.

—————

I think it makes more sense to divorce CHI-MSP from MSP-DUL for now; it lets two medium-density trainsets ping-pong between the Twin Cities and Twin Ports without fear that a delay on CP or BNSF will wreck the rotation. I do think there needs to be service to St. Paul Union Depot as well as Minneapolis Target Field Station though - a second CHI-MSP turn will be able to connect with a Duluth train.

Yup , pretty much, Though I would have the MSP morning train leave earlier, and probably a 1/2 hr layover at MSP for the Train from Chicago .
At the Chicago end, There is already a 6 and 8 amish departure to Milwaukee, so maybe 7 a.m departure would suit better anyway.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:51 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:39 pm I was meaning a return trip from Duluth to MSP, not Ch icago. I was thinking 2 trainsets would cover the Duluth and Chicago trains, rather than 2 for Chicago, and one for Duluth.
l

So, something like:
Trainset 1
8a dep Chicago
4p arr St. Paul
7p arr Duluth dep 7:30p
10:30p arr St. Paul (layover)

8a dep St. Paul
11a arr Duluth dep 11:30a
2:30p arr St. Paul
10:30p arr Chicago

Trainset 2
8a dep St. Paul
11a arr Duluth dep 11:30a
2:30p arr St. Paul
10:30p arr Chicago

8a dep Chicago
4p arr St. Paul
7p arr Duluth dep 7:30p
10:30p arr St. Paul (layover)

In addition to the additional CHI-MSP turn and the Empire Builder.

—————

I think it makes more sense to divorce CHI-MSP from MSP-DUL for now; it lets two medium-density trainsets ping-pong between the Twin Cities and Twin Ports without fear that a delay on CP or BNSF will wreck the rotation. I do think there needs to be service to St. Paul Union Depot as well as Minneapolis Target Field Station though - a second CHI-MSP turn will be able to connect with a Duluth train.

It could work, but your elapse times are very aggressive and the train will never be on time.
You allow 8 hours between Chicago and St. Paul, the Empire Builder schedule shows 9 to 10 hours with the refueling stop in St. Paul. You allow just 3 hours between St. Paul and Duluth - 150+ miles would require averaging 50 mph including all the stops and delays over a single track line. Few -if any- Amtrak trains average speeds that high on single track lines.
I'm not going to suggest this plan will not work, just that you need to change the schedule slightly by adding at least 2 hours, potentially 3 hours to the daily run of both trains.

Very true, Ron. Even if the train takes 2h 30m MSP-DUL by the schedule, a half-hour isn’t ever going to be enough time to consistently turn and leave again!

I think that such a MSP-DUL-MSP-CHI daylight schedule just isn’t workable in the long run, even departing at 6 and arriving at midnight. Six hours isn’t much to service a train, after all. DUL-MSP-CHI is doable, and has been done by Amtrak before, but the benefits are still greater to have a stand-alone MSP-DUL train right now and have Amtrak concentrate on a second, third, and eventual fourth CHI-MSP frequency.

I'm not seeing a logical need for people up in the Twin Ports wanting to go beyond MSP. Keep those as separate funding requests...

It would be great to try and run all the way to downtown Duluth, but if Phoenix can have a train station 30 miles away, I think Duluth can survive having its station in Superior...

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:19 am I'm not seeing a logical need for people up in the Twin Ports wanting to go beyond MSP. Keep those as separate funding requests...

Right. If they go beyond MSP to Chicago or Milwaukee, they probably either fly or drive down US 53.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:19 amIt would be great to try and run all the way to downtown Duluth, but if Phoenix can have a train station 30 miles away, I think Duluth can survive having its station in Superior...

Different critters. Duluth is at the end of the line while Phoenix would require a long backing move. Duluth is a fairly small metropolitan area (appx 300,000) while Phoenix is huge; the small proportion of Phoenix residents willing to drive to Maricopa is still a lot of people, but the small proportion of Duluth residents willing to drive to Superior makes the Northern Lights Express a much tougher proportion. (Remember, relative proportions of about 240,000 centered on Detroit, versus 40,000 centered on Superior.)

What is gained by terminating in Superior? It still gets a station abutting downtown in the Northern Lights Express plan. If you’re talking about jobs created by building a service point there, it’s likely the service would just contract service to BNSF, CP, UP or CN (respectively in that order.) On the MN side, the North Shore Scenic already has maintenance facilities, so it’s not like this future train would have to cross the bridge again.

And as I’ve said repeatedly, I and other Duluth-bound riders would be more than willing to ride the extra half-hour to get to Duluth Soo Line Station. The NLX project is planning to improve the tracks enough so it won’t take the full hour our posters insist it will.

Keep dreaming of your Michigan City-Gary and Poughkeepsie-Yonkers trains

>but the small proportion of Duluth residents willing to drive to Superior makes the Northern Lights Express a much tougher proportion.

Do you have experience of Duluth, or a source for that statement? I'm pretty skeptical.

This isn't Phoenix/Maricopa. Duluth and Superior are across two bridges from each other in a setting where most everyone has to have access to a car to survive. Even from north of Duluth, once you're on 67 heading past the station in downtown Duluth, it's another 4 minutes to downtown Superior.
Parts of Duluth are closer to downtown Superior than to downtown Duluth.

Regarding interline with the Builder, consider the people riding to Duluth. The industries there are tourism (summer cottages, hunting, hiking, canoeing), mining, and shipping.

The mining companies are mostly in places like Chicago, Cleveland, and Pitt. It's a stretch to ride Chicago to Duluth (plus 2 hours into the woods for the mine) and a total non-starter from CLE or Pitt.

The shipping companies are mostly in Cleveland, again a non-starter.

That leaves people with affairs in Milwaukee, like banking, legal, and government. And tourists.

Regarding tourists, I'm not quite sure where they come from but I bet 50% is twin cities. That's why I suggest continuing a few frequencies to Two Harbors, at least for summer. Certain operations like Algoma Central, Alaska, and Via Sagueny trains have many flag stops and will carry canoes in/out. It might be useful. Unfortunately Two Harbors is not that far up the lake, and the tracks turn north into the arrowhead region (and are CN's) after Two Harbors.