NLX Northern Lights Express HSR MN Duluth-Twin Cities

electricron wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 12:45 am Elapse time of two and a half hours to travel ~150 miles only averages ~60 mph.
Why does Amtrak keep suggesting starting a new passenger train service with so slow speeds?
I read 90 mph max speeds in that article, but for how long?

Because in this country that requires billions of dollars that states don’t have/don’t want to spend for new lines. It makes perfect sense not to support that and I absolutely agree with it every time, especially in places where preserved ROW’s or operating lines exist. Suggesting that all of these services need to be speedy is putting the cart before the horse, and putting the cart before the wheels as well. You’re not going anywhere even with a jumpstart by putting up a gigantic price tag.

The rightful goal for Amtrak is not to beat planes, or to beat cars, but to provide an alternate transport reliably, and comfortably, and in the interim, acquire and upgrade what’s available. Who needs to get between Duluth and the twin cities within an hour? Why?

What’s going to make everyone in the state of Minnesota happier? A 2 and 1/2 hour service that doesn’t exceed budget proposals, can actually be a reasonable alternate transport, and runs reliably? Or a money pit that costs several billion dollars and countless more years and decades just to get there 30 minutes faster?

I’d wager the former.

Metropolitan-area populations -- Twin Cities: 3,690 K -- Duluth: 291 K

Google Maps highway distance: Minneapolis - Duluth 154 mi

A speed of 60 mph is rather respectable for Amtrak corridor routes. Here are some:

• Cascades (Seattle - Portland OR): 187 mi, 3h 25m, 55 mph
• San Joaquins (Emeryville - Bakersfield): 315 mi, 6h, 53 mph
• Lincoln (Chicago - St. Louis): 284 mi, 5h 6m, 56 mph
• Downeaster (Boston - Portland ME): 107 mi, 2h 30m, 43 mph

Source: Amtrak Timetable Archives - Home

I'm perfectly fine with having the average 60 MPH speeds for emerging corridors.

It's unfortunate that the Obama Administration was so focused on High-Speed Rail that they ignored any-speed rail.

Just think what could have been done with all of that money wasted on Chicago-St Louis or California High-Speed Rail had it been invested into some of these other places like the second daily Minneapolis to Chicago, or Minneapolis to Duluth.

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Ummm, just no. There is definitely more bang for the buck on Chicago-Springfield-St. Louis than Milwaukee-Twin Cities. I'm glad there'll be a second and even a third train on that segment and all. But speaking as a businessman, I'm awfully glad Amtrak didn't get derailed on that stretch rather than focusing on a tighter, more heavily traveled set of cities.

Tomorrow, 3 of 5 St. Louis trains are sold out. Monday, 2 of 5 are full, and Business class is sold out for one of the other three. This corridor is a huge bright spot for Amtrak.

You may think the it wasn't worth the expense, but that's pretending they could have cherry-picked Wisconsin trackage for free 15 years ago. And then the idea they should have been investing in Minneapolis-Duluth over Chgo-St. Louis... SMH.

The real question is why they didn't invest in running a brush through the rat's nest south of Chicago Union Station. The tangle of delays there is THE problem preventing Amtrak outside the NEC from becoming a functioning system. Service everywhere between the NEC and Chicago is ridiculous to non-existent, in large part because no train can count on leaving Chicago on time or getting in on time in that direction. Chicago-Milwaukee and Chicago-St. Louis finally work. Get Chicago-Detroit running on time and the rest of the Midwest will fall into place on its own, on business analysis without the prospect of operating subsidy.

Sorry, as an Illinois taxpayer, I just don't see the benefit from pouring 2.5 billion dollars into Joliet to Alton.

People don't ride the train because it's fast, green or convenient.

People ride it because it's cheap. It cost me more to take Uber to the airport than it does to buy a walk up ticket between Chicago and St Louis.

Putting money into flyovers for CREATE would have been a much better use.

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If you build it, WILL they come?: KSTP

Will Twin Cities to Duluth train succeed where it once failed?

Will Twin Cities to Duluth train succeed where it once failed?
In some ways, the new Northern Lights Express train between the Twin Cities and Duluth will be a sort of back-to-the-future moment for Minnesota. A “North Star” train between the two destinations ended in 1985 after a 10-year run plagued by low ridership and a lack of operating funds.

“The stars aligned in Minnesota when the House and the Senate and the governor’s office all agreed it was time to stop planning and start building the Northern Lights Express project,” says Ken Buehler of the Lake Superior Railroad Museum and a member of the Northern Lights Express Alliance. Buehler is referring to the $195 million approved by the Minnesota Legislature in May to fund 20% of a new train line with the federal government kicking in the other 80%, or $779 million of the projected $974 million cost.
...
The ticket cost is estimated between $30 and $35 per passenger each way.
...
Ridership projections used to support the Northern Lights Express suggest 700,000 to 750,000 people will use the train in its first year of operation. That would be more than the total number of riders who used the North Star train in 10 years combined from 1975 to 1985.
...

ryanwc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:08 am

Tomorrow, 3 of 5 St. Louis trains are sold out. Monday, 2 of 5 are full, and Business class is sold out for one of the other three. This corridor is a huge bright spot for Amtrak.

It is less than a bright spot. Summer of 2019 I spent a lot of time on these trains and despite the "high speed" marketing, they are anything but. They are often so late that 150mph speeds in certain areas would not make up for the delays. Also the Eagle is marketed as a STL-CHI service and that falls short when it is hours late coming out of Texas and Arkansas northbound.

I would up flying after a while as it was not easy to ride the train.

Steamguy73 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 1:46 pm
The rightful goal for Amtrak is not to beat planes, or to beat cars, but to provide an alternate transport reliably, and comfortably, and in the interim, acquire and upgrade what’s available. Who needs to get between Duluth and the twin cities within an hour? Why?

What’s going to make everyone in the state of Minnesota happier? A 2 and 1/2 hour service that doesn’t exceed budget proposals, can actually be a reasonable alternate transport, and runs reliably? Or a money pit that costs several billion dollars and countless more years and decades just to get there 30 minutes faster?

Well said. We can look to the NEC for how poorly our high speed gambles work. The Acela was a PITA and the Acela II is a dumpster fire. Clean and reliable trains with comfortable seats that run on-time will sell well as an alternative to driving.

Also the schedules are skewed because the last few miles are impossible. If the train terminated in Superior, it wouldn't have to find its way across the river, which is a huge barrier. Duluth-Superior is an enormous freight train hub and it has rivers, draw bridges, and steep hills that make a 1 mile hop across the river into an hour debacle. But a Superior termination is politically tough when Minnesota writes the checks. From a practical standpoint, I'd ride MSP-Superior and rent a car there. Downtown Superior is flat, open, and has two neat old legacy railroad stations and plenty of space to build a new one. Both the Soo and GN stations are walking distance to downtown, hotels, restaurants, etc...

Much as I love the Duluth station and museum, it is really hard to be practical now that the Rice Point railroad bridge is gone and I35 blocks the station. If you arent' familiar with the Duluth Station, it's now a terrific museum with operating trains that run 20 miles northeast. There is one station track left for operating passenger trains. They back up a mile under the freeway, then run 20 miles north.

If you look at the map on their website it looks like this, but in reality is anything but that. The Superior to Duluth part is rife with yards, junctions, draw bridges, etc...

Yup. MN and WI could spend $50M on a bridge that won't be needed after people discover it's faster to get off in Superior and take an Uber for the last 5 miles to their destination.... or they could just subsidize the Ubers and spend a fraction of that because I still suspect this will be dozens of riders daily.

Logistically, it's easier to park near Superior for the locals heading south, and I suspect there's more room for the trainset to layover.

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eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:29 am Yup. MN and WI could spend $50M on a bridge that won't be needed after people discover it's faster to get off in Superior and take an Uber for the last 5 miles to their destination.... or they could just subsidize the Ubers and spend a fraction of that because I still suspect this will be dozens of riders daily.

They could buy ten sprinter vans every five years for a significant savings in time and money if the train terminated in Superior.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:29 amLogistically, it's easier to park near Superior for the locals heading south, and I suspect there's more room for the trainset to layover.

Yes the parking situation in downtown Superior is wide open. Plenty of space for a new lot that could hold 50 cars. The only way Duluth makes sense is if they ever wanted to continue up the coast to Two Harbors, but that is only 34 miles. Doesn't get you half way to Canada and that land up there is very quiet anyway. I have a friend with a cabin well past the last ore docks about two hours up coast from Duluth. It is amazing up there.

Now if they ever wanted to serve the "population centers" of the Iron Range, those are not easily served from Duluth as it would require a long (5+ miles) back out. For example, going up through Proctor to Hibbing or Virginia would be much better served from Superior.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:29 am Yup.

Mr. Olesen, you must be a UP'er (Upper Peninsula; for those like myself who have only seen it from FL350)

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:03 am

ryanwc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:08 am

Tomorrow, 3 of 5 St. Louis trains are sold out. Monday, 2 of 5 are full, and Business class is sold out for one of the other three. This corridor is a huge bright spot for Amtrak.

It is less than a bright spot. Summer of 2019 I spent a lot of time on these trains and despite the "high speed" marketing, they are anything but. They are often so late that 150mph speeds in certain areas would not make up for the delays. Also the Eagle is marketed as a STL-CHI service and that falls short when it is hours late coming out of Texas and Arkansas northbound.

I would up flying after a while as it was not easy to ride the train.

Your experience in 2019 is real and relevant in a general way to Amtrak. But much less relevant to the Lincoln Service today.

The schedule is half an hour faster than it was, and they also use the speed as a way to catch up. My scheduled 4' 5" trip Carlinville-Chgo on Monday took 4' 15. The other NBs that day were 8, 2 and 10 minutes EARLY. The SBs that day were +7, -18, +2 and -2. (I've excluded the Eagle, and used + to indicate early.) Both speed and timeliness have improved.

Yes, they need to solve Chicago's south side in order to fix Illini/Saluki/CONY; and all trains east; and to make Lincoln Service an even more solid and reliable service. But it's become pretty good since you last rode.

But Chgo-St. Louis is in much better shape than it was when you rode.

I've had several experiences in the last 6 months where business trips to Spfld. and Carlinville were within margins of driving and allowed me to work, relax, eat and pee.

An interesting example right now - the Texas Eagle NB was half an hour late at Springfield, but made up 20 minutes by Joliet, and is now expected to arrive on time at its Chicago terminus. Over time, the ability to make up ground, improving the likelihood of arriving on time, creates different expectations with railroad hosts and with Amtrak staff, a positive feedback loop.

If Amtrak trains arrive at Chicago Western Ave. at some random time within half an hour of schedule and pretty often an hour or more late, there's little incentive for the crossing railroad to maintain open passage, so the likelihood of blockage there is high. "Let's squeeze another freight through. Amtrak will have to wait."

If Amtrak is routinely on time or even early and waiting for its window, the window is more likely to be kept open for them.

(I'll note that I'm not sure how often the Eagle makes up ground through Central Illinois. But I didn't just cherry-pick today's train. I was on an earlier Illinois Service train, which arrived early. I had the tracker open as a result, so I was watching the Eagle behind us.)

What does any of this have to do with the Minneapolis to Duluth train? We're not talking about a high-speed section that is going to allow 110 mph running.

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Look upthread for your previous posts, guy.