• NHRHTA gets interesting a'gin

  • Discussion relating to the NH and its subsidiaries (NYW&B, Union Freight Railroad, Connecticut Company, steamship lines, etc.). up until its 1969 inclusion into the Penn Central merger. This forum is also for the discussion of efforts to preserve former New Haven equipment, artifacts and its history. You may also wish to visit www.nhrhta.org for more information.
Discussion relating to the NH and its subsidiaries (NYW&B, Union Freight Railroad, Connecticut Company, steamship lines, etc.). up until its 1969 inclusion into the Penn Central merger. This forum is also for the discussion of efforts to preserve former New Haven equipment, artifacts and its history. You may also wish to visit www.nhrhta.org for more information.
  by Noel Weaver
I think I have been singled out for my remarks on their forum. They seem to allow all sorts of post NHRR stuff about stations, locomotives and track but what I post gets singled out for criticism. Not any more it won't.
Now they are discussing some outfit that put out a New Haven steam engine, I thought all had been scrapped in the 50's.
Real engine 529 a NHRR RS-3 is not a New Haven engine but a plastic or metal toy from China or somewhere else is a New
Haven engine, this is their thinking and it makes no sense.
I think there is one member of their BOD and a part of their leadership who fears what I might post there about him. He
does not have to worry about what I will post THERE about him but it might appear elsewhere in time. It is an interesting
story with some loose facts and lies and other inaccuracies. Maybe I'll cover it sometime down the road, it needs to be done.
Noel Weaver
  by mxdata
The finest modern brass or plastic HO scale model and an old Lionel F3 painted "New Haven" differ only in their degree of inaccuracy, they are still just models. :-D

Yes, I saw their comments about how the 529 isn't "relevant" to the New Haven anymore.

It is unfortunate that some historical society people who consider themselves to be the absolute experts on certain aspects of railroad history chose to treat those who actually lived and worked that history as a threat to their ownership of the subject.

  by H.F.Malone
Funny how 529 is still doing useful work, after 59 1/2 years, on the same (NHRR) tracks it did back when The Red One was in kindergarten. 529's much more original and real than The Red One is, don't you think?

Noel's stories, explanations and discussions are always enlightening, entertaining and useful. Glad he's continuing here, when he could have simply gone away. Now, as the man on the radio used to say, how about "the rest of the story", Noel? Inquiring minds want to know!
  by mxdata
The concept of having a "model railroading based" perspective of railroad history has some very serious flaws. I have watched over the years as several very well known people from the railroad industry who were undisputed subject experts in their areas of experience spent their retirement years building masterful model railroad layouts with fabulous model equipment that were seen by a few dozen close friends and then promptly cut up and sent to the dump by their spouses on their demise, with the equipment auctioned off on eBay. The same amount of time and effort spent applying their knowledge and talent to building dioramas and displays for museums or to publishing magazine articles based on their experiences would have resulted in a lasting legacy shared with and viewed by thousands of people, as well as providing a valuable service to the public and future railroad historians. The children of one of those industry and model railroad enthusiasts recently commented to me that they can't find much of anything still existing from their father's efforts just three years after he passed away. I don't understand what it is that makes people want to shelter their knowledge, their work, and their experience in their basement with the result that somebody else throws their life's work in the trash when they are gone.

So much really wonderful talent ending up WASTED.

  by CannaScrews
It will come down to the Pharaohs and the philanthropists.

Pharaohs - bury it with you in your tomb - subject to grave robbers or lost for all time.

Philanthropists - using presence of mind to build for the future - after your bones have rotted but with the satisfaction that you left something other than a pyramid.
  by HighlandRail&DEY-7 652
NHRHTA=closed minded. They suck. Support groups who preserve the PHYSICAL aspect of the NEW HAVEN whether or not the darn headlight is different. But seriously they seem to only care about what THEY saw and no one else. So much for PRESERVING the New Haven, lets just reflect on it as how THEY saw it HISTORY be damned.
  by CannaScrews
Hello Mike L:

Not that I don't disagree with you, but maybe a little temperance of rhetoric will help to guide the organization into a more (dare I say this when Sara Palin is on FOX) progressive mind-frame. NHRHTA is not monolithic - or - neolithic, just the more vocal aspects seem to bear that impression.

Ahh yooth - back in my day - we were too stoned to make a coherent statement, sentence or utterance (other than "Right On") ---- (who said that - I can't remember)
  by mxdata
If they are a 501c3 set up for an "educational" mission, which is the usual purpose statement for railroad historical societies, it would be interesting to hear the explanation to the IRS of how you refuse access to your discussion board for certain events which took place in the past, but only those that happened more recently than a particular date. Most historical organizations recognize that in order to provide a balanced "interpretive" presentation of history you have to "interpret". That can involve explaining the influence of factors before, after, and happening parallel to the time frame of the subjects and events that are the primary focus of the organization's study efforts.

  by Cosmo
Y'know? It all depends on an individual's opinion. What is "Truth" and what is "fact?" What is "Accurate" and what is "relevant?"
To say that a surviving relic, no, let's be "factual" here, an actual surviving, operating piece of RR equipment isn't relevant to that RR's history?"
Assuming I've read you guys correctly, (and I'm not going to waste time pouring through irrelevant threads on annother forum to figure it out,) that's what NHRTHA, or at least, it's more prominant members are saying.
Ok then....
Valley Railroad down here in CT may not be using NH steam engines, (because there ARENT any,) or even NH diesels for that matter, but they have several pieces of original NHRR rolling stock which they run over a FORMER NH branchline. But who cares!?? It's not RELEVANT to NH history?!?!?
I dunno guys,... *shaking head in frustraation*
Well, the VRR is the VRR... and they're rebuilding a Chinese steam engine from "parade-rest" up. When it's finished, it may not BE a genuine NH steamer, it may not even LOOK that much like one, save the rebuilt cab and a few genuinely accurate appliannces, BUT she WILL be painted with NEW HAVEN on the tender.
When completed, she will be the CLOSEST THING that anyone has been able to produce to a genuine NH steamer because NOBODY ELSE is doing it!
(What's my point here? I'll get there, bear with.)
Simply put, we know we'll never produce a steamer that will quiet all the rivet counters in 12"=1' scale....
but I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate to do such a thing.
some VERRY genuine NH diesels HAVE been saved and continue to operate at other museums. It hasn't been solely through NHRTHA's efforts that these things have been done. But I'd defy those guys to try to say that ANYONE'S 12"=1' scale model isn't ACCURATE!
THEY didn't PAINT the dang thing!
Just for comparison...
the WW&F RR, (a 2'er in Maine) recently acquired a locomotive that until recently had never even SEEN Maine, let alone originated on an original M2F RR. SInce the RR in question bought the original charter for the W&Q, leagally they ARE the original RR and can do whatever they want... but!
NOBODY is about to say that WW&FRR #10 is NOT a MAINE TWO FOOTER locomotive... now!
And nobody will complain when they ride behind it,... nor will fans of the original lumber company that ordered it built way back when come out of the woodwork to complain about it's being painted for a Maine RR which it never ran on until recently.
So let NHRTHA talk all they want about accuracy. When I want a NH locomotive in HO, I'll buy the closest comercialy available product I can find, use whatever decals are out there, and either carve the window and add details,... or just leave it be in all it's innacurate glory, and I'll call it good!
I'lll HAVE to, because the "KEEPERS OF MODELING ACCURACY" STILL have not produced a cab wrappper with an arched roof window, NOR does it look like they willl ever make any effort to do so.
So, the VRR and I will have to scratchbuild our own cabs,( each in our respective scales,) and CALL IT GOOD!
And thanks to our efforts (and the Naugy, and CERM, and Danbury, et all...) the NEW HAVEN will live on in more than just memory.
  by Noel Weaver
I think what the Valley RR is doing is a great idea. Having said that, I don't think the NHRHTA will offer any support nor
encouragement in any way for this project. Who cares whether they do or don't, the railfans, for the most part, do not
really support operations like this one but the general public does and they will love the result. In addition the Valley will
again have a rather modern engine which should help in their operation and help keep their costs down too.
I suspect the NHRHTA will be history sometime in the future and I hope the Valley, RMNE and all of the other fine operations
and museums are still around to see this happen and my guess is that they will be, every one of them.
Noel Weaver
Last edited by Noel Weaver on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by Otto Vondrak
Hehe... let's not get too worked up here. I don't want to create a "pile on" situation here. There's some strong opinions here.

Let's focus on the positives.

  by HighlandRail&DEY-7 652
ahhh but a NH steamer DOES exist, the Daniel Nason at ST Louis, was owned by the NH for some time and the donated to Danbury Fair grounds. Just because it was lettered as such doesn't mean they didn't own it.
  by Cosmo
NO no no!
The Nason was a Boston and Providence engine, and NOT housed in the archives in STORRS and is therefore...
Oh, wait... now I'm doing it! :P
  by Noel Weaver
I had a long telephone conversation with another retired engineer who also has a New Haven background and started with
the NHRR around the time that I did.
He does not participate on the NHRHTA forum and I know several other retired NHRR employees in various capacities whom
also want no part of the NHRHTA. It is their loss.
In truth we figured that among at least a fair portion of their leadership they simply do not like retired people who have
worked for the New Haven Railroad. It amounts to something that we have that they can't possibly have and never will.
One of them in particular dislikes Amtrak on a big scale but he worked for them until he got canned for a very good reason.
This is probably the reason that he does not want anything on there after December 31, 1968. There is motive here.
There's more to the story, sometime.
Noel Weaver
  by HighlandRail&DEY-7 652
True that.