NH Maine Passenger Service (with B&M/MEC/PRR/NYC)

edbear wrote:Prior to consolidating all of its timetables into a single system folder about 1918, the B & M issued lots of divisional, suburban and through timetables. The Condensed Through Timetable covered some of the longer runs and touristy-vacationer runs on the B & M only and its connections to lots of off-line destinations. In Form ADV35, September 7, 1903, the New York to Maine service right to Mt. Desert Island runs New York to Springfield via New Haven, Boston & Albany to Worcester and Boston & Maine to Portland via Nashua Union Sta. and Rochester. In Form35, June 26, 1911, the same routing via Springfield and B & A to Worcester is shown; B & M routing from Ayer is over to Lowell, Lawrence and Portland. The train has an 8 pm New York departure time in both schedules (no Daylight Time then). The Condensed Through Timetable is about the thickness of the Amtrak timetables of the 1970s and 1980s.

I have not concentrated in collecting timetables older than around 1920 or so. As a result, I can't argue with this one. Maybe it was before enough sections were either completed or under the New Haven's control to make a difference.
Noel Weaver

TomNelligan wrote:

As best as I can tell the B&A stopped being marketed as a separate railroad brand in 1914.

"Brand"??? It was the name of the railroad, not a "brand"!

Steam locomotives carried the Boston & Albany name right to the end of B&A steam in 1951. Public and employee timetables carried the railroad's name through the 1940s. The B&A also owned 11 Alco HH-600 diesels that bore the railroad's name, although dieselization was primarily accomplished with NYC units. The B&A lasted as an NYC subsidiary corporation into the early 1960s when it was finally merged into the parent company. As late as the 1960s there remained a handful of NYC System freight cars with B&A reporting marks.

Tom,

I know practically nothing about the B&A. I appreciate the clarification.

Pretty sure I've seen pictures of either the State of Maine or the East Wind on the Midland somewhere east of Hartford, with a DL109 on the point.

Ridgefielder wrote:Pretty sure I've seen pictures of either the State of Maine or the East Wind on the Midland somewhere east of Hartford, with a DL109 on the point.

The last two years of operation of the East Wind it operated via Hartford, Willimantic and Putnam making those three stops between New Haven and Worcester. Much of the time the two trains met at Hampton and there have been pictures showing this meet published at various times. When the floods hit on August 19, 1955 the New Haven simply no longer operated the East Wind on any route and the train never again returned to the timetables.
Noel Weaver

With the tracks being rebuilt or repaired ,Will the train service ever be restored up through Maine ?

Noel Weaver wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:Pretty sure I've seen pictures of either the State of Maine or the East Wind on the Midland somewhere east of Hartford, with a DL109 on the point.

The last two years of operation of the East Wind it operated via Hartford, Willimantic and Putnam making those three stops between New Haven and Worcester. Much of the time the two trains met at Hampton and there have been pictures showing this meet published at various times. When the floods hit on August 19, 1955 the New Haven simply no longer operated the East Wind on any route and the train never again returned to the timetables.
Noel Weaver

Noel, is my understanding correct, that the Hartford-Putnam routing was chosen in 1954 and 1955 owing to increased congestion on the Shore Line? In previous years, the route had been via Providence.

gawlikfj wrote:With the tracks being rebuilt or repaired ,Will the train service ever be restored up through Maine ?

Maybe, but the chances of that happening via the old routes are, for the moment, very low.

Whatever route a restored service from New York City to Maine takes it will probably be on the same tracks as other passenger trains.

gokeefe wrote:

gawlikfj wrote:With the tracks being rebuilt or repaired ,Will the train service ever be restored up through Maine ?

Maybe, but the chances of that happening via the old routes are, for the moment, very low.

Whatever route a restored service from New York City to Maine takes it will probably be on the same tracks as other passenger trains.

I think if through passenger service between New York and Portland ever is restored it will be via Worcester which is probably the post practical remaining route. It could operate via the Norwich Branch or via Providence, both routes are operated by the Providence and Worcester and I think either route would be practical. If push came to shove I think the Norwich Branch would probably be the better of the two as it is much shorter and it is in decent condition.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:

gokeefe wrote:

gawlikfj wrote:With the tracks being rebuilt or repaired ,Will the train service ever be restored up through Maine ?

Maybe, but the chances of that happening via the old routes are, for the moment, very low.

Whatever route a restored service from New York City to Maine takes it will probably be on the same tracks as other passenger trains.

I think if through passenger service between New York and Portland ever is restored it will be via Worcester which is probably the post practical remaining route. It could operate via the Norwich Branch or via Providence, both routes are operated by the Providence and Worcester and I think either route would be practical. If push came to shove I think the Norwich Branch would probably be the better of the two as it is much shorter and it is in decent condition.
Noel Weaver

Noel,

What was the timetable speed in that era for passenger trains on those branches?

gokeefe wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:
I think if through passenger service between New York and Portland ever is restored it will be via Worcester which is probably the post practical remaining route. It could operate via the Norwich Branch or via Providence, both routes are operated by the Providence and Worcester and I think either route would be practical. If push came to shove I think the Norwich Branch would probably be the better of the two as it is much shorter and it is in decent condition.
Noel Weaver

Noel,

What was the timetable speed in that era for passenger trains on those branches?

According to New Haven Railroad ETT No. 177 (April 26, 1953):

Maximum speed on the Shore Line between Old Saybrook and Stonington, which included the New London-Groton (1.43 miles) segment, was 70 mph, with speed restrictions on the New London curves and over the bridge.
MAS Groton-Worcester (70.88 miles) was 50 mph, with a speed restriction of 35mph at Shetucket.
Total miles New London-Worcester via Norwich and Putnam: 72.31.

MAS Stonington-Readville, which included the Providence-Boston Switch segment (4.90 miles) was 75 mph. [On today's NEC, it is, for the most part, 125mph.]
MAS Boston Switch-South Worcester (37.47 miles) was 60 mph.
Mileage between Worcester and Providence was 43.29 and between Providence and New London was 62.25. Total miles New London-Worcester via Blackstone, Providence and the Shore Line: 105.54.

Although the route via Norwich was 33.23 miles shorter than the route via Providence, it had a lower Maximum Allowable Speed. The running times Worcester-New London were nearly the same: 1h51m for "Shoreliners" (RDCs) making 6 intermediate stops via Norwich, versus 2h25m for the State of Maine making one intermediate stop of 10m at Providence—thus 2h15m, a difference of only 24m. And remember, we are comparing speedy RDCs on a day run versus a heavy sleeping car train on a night run.

eastwind

eastwind wrote:According to New Haven Railroad ETT No. 177 (April 26, 1953):

Maximum speed on the Shore Line between Old Saybrook and Stonington, which included the New London-Groton (1.43 miles) segment, was 70 mph, with speed restrictions on the New London curves and over the bridge.
MAS Groton-Worcester (70.88 miles) was 50 mph, with a speed restriction of 35mph at Shetucket.
Total miles New London-Worcester via Norwich and Putnam: 72.31.

MAS Stonington-Readville, which included the Providence-Boston Switch segment (4.90 miles) was 75 mph. [On today's NEC, it is, for the most part, 125mph.]
MAS Boston Switch-South Worcester (37.47 miles) was 60 mph.
Mileage between Worcester and Providence was 43.29 and between Providence and New London was 62.25. Total miles New London-Worcester via Blackstone, Providence and the Shore Line: 105.54.

Although the route via Norwich was 33.23 miles shorter than the route via Providence, it had a lower Maximum Allowable Speed. The running times Worcester-New London were nearly the same: 1h51m for "Shoreliners" (RDCs) making 6 intermediate stops via Norwich, versus 2h25m for the State of Maine making one intermediate stop of 10m at Providence—thus 2h15m, a difference of only 24m. And remember, we are comparing speedy RDCs on a day run versus a heavy sleeping car train on a night run.

eastwind

Wow. Thanks for another great response.

So, perhaps this begs the question, given today's NEC speeds, which for a train operating to/from Maine would likely be with equipment certified for up to either 110 MPH - 125 MPH what would the transit times look like if they used the Worcester-Providence-Shore Line routing? I'm assuming they would be lower, even when compared against "fastest historical" timetable speeds?

I started a new topic in the B&M/MEC forum for discussion of the B&M/MEC's two major long distance passenger trains, the State of Maine and The Gull.

Some of the information in that post (I have omitted the information for The Gull) may also pertain to our discussions here:

gokeefe wrote:Here are the standard resources that I am aware of for each respective train:

State of Maine

1. Mr. VanBokkelen's Website

2. Wikipedia Entry

3. Railroad.net Thread: NH Maine Passenger Service (with B&M/MEC/PRR/NYC), NH Forum

4. Railroad.net Thread: New Haven Through Trains - 1943, NH Forum

5. Railroad.net Thread: Passenger service along the Norwich & lower Palmer lines, New England Forum

6. Passenger Trains, Boston & Maine/Maine Central Forum

7. State of Maine Sleeper Car Menu Discussion Thread, Yahoo Groups (BM_RR Group)

8. Train Orders Thread, Pine Tree State Pullman Sleeper Car from NH State of Maine Service

9. Photos of Pine Tree State Sleeper Car

10. Passenger Car Photo Index (NH) Multiple photos of Pine Tree State

11. MEC 1931 Timetable

One of the more delightful discoveries of initiating this thread was discovering the NH Sleeper (6BDR)-Buffet-Lounge Pine Tree State in preserved status at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. Frankly I was really shocked as so few streamlined passenger cars of any kind that ever served on the MEC in any capacity are still in existence today. To find a car that had served on the State of Maine, and was bought precisely for such service was all that much more impressive. Pine Tree State also holds the very notable distinction of being the last car bought by the NH to still be certified for interchange via Class I railroads.

As I stated in the other thread I was particularly pleased to discover Pine Tree State in its preserved status at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. I did not expect to find this gem, or any other car used on the State of Maine at all.

[EDIT: Grammar]

It is 123 miles from New Haven to Worcester via Norwich and 156 miles New Haven to Worcester via Providence. The saving of 33 miles is significant in my opinion in both crew and fuel costs. Both lines of the Providence and Worcester are in reasonable shape but would require some upgrading in order to accomodate passenger trains on a regular basis. When the East Wind last ran it was via Hartford, Willimantic and Putnam and this route was the shortest at 118 miles but unfortunately it is no longer available as the section between Manchester and Putnam is long gone and will never return.
Noel Weaver

Reposted from the Bar Harbor Express, East Wind thread in the B&M/MEC forum:

gokeefe wrote:The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society has an excellent document, written by a Christopher T. Baer (September 8, 2009 ed.), titled "NAMED TRAINS OF THE PRR INCLUDING THROUGH SERVICES" with what appears to be nearly definitive accounts of both the Bar Harbor Express and East Wind.

Here they are:

The Bar Harbor Express

BAR HARBOR EXPRESS:
Est. on PRR 6/11/1917 as WASHINGTON-BAR HARBOR EXPRESS; #175-176; summer-only,
all-Pullman train, Washington-Bangor-Rockland and Mt. Desert ferry (Mt. Desert definitely by
6/17/18); NEW YORK-BAR HARBOR EXPRESS ran from Grand Central prior to 1916;
combined with PRR train at Portland, Maine; Bretton Woods car added 6/29/1917; PRR train
renamed PHILADELPHIA-BAR HARBOR EXPRESS 6/14/1920; in 1922 operates twice a week
in May and Sept.-Oct. and three times a week June-Sept.; renumbered #169-170 6/19/1928;
renumbered #170-171 4/26/1931; NEW YORK-BAR HARBOR EXPRESS makes last run
9/20/1931, and beginning in 6/3/1932 a single BAR HARBOR EXPRESS operates via Penn
Station; renumbered #111-132 5/20/1932; last trip 9/27/1942; discontinued for war; restored
6/7/1946 (weekend) and 6/24/1946 (daily) operating via Providence & Worcester instead of
Norwich & Worcester (file - A-sheet says restored 6/25/46 daily north of Phila.); by 6/20/49
operates only three times a week; by 1951 operates only north of Philadelphia; PRR #184-185
discontinued between Philadelphia and New York 6/28/1954; continues to carry through cars
from Philadelphia and Washington; in 1955 operates twice a week; last trip daily car to Bretton
Woods and weekend car to Plymouth 9/3/1956; last trip Bangor-Ellsworth 9/15/1957; last trip
Philadelphia-Rockland car 9/1/1958; in 6/20-9/14/58 season is #184-185 THE BAR HARBOR;
last trip 9/5/1960.

The East Wind

*THE EAST WIND:
Est. 6/21/1940: #190/91-90/191; summer-only, all-coach heavyweight streamlined train,
Washington-Worcester-Lowell-Exeter-Portland-Bangor via PRR/NH/B&M/MEC; discontinued
as war measure, last trip 9/20/1942; revived 6/21/1946 as #192-193, Washington-Bangor; last trip
south of New York 9/22/1946; starting 6/20/1947 operates from New York with through cars
from Philadelphia; last trip of Plymouth, N.H., sleeper 9/11/1949; last trip from Penn Station
9/11/1949; begins operating from Grand Central Terminal as #120-121 6/26/1950; last trip
9/10/1950; revived from Grand Central 6/26/1953-9/12/1953, 6/25/1954-9/11/1954,6/24/1955-
9/10/1955; last trip 9/10/1955; name revived by Amtrak for Northeast Corridor trains 11/14/71-
2/14/76.