Newtown line leased to Montco for recreational trail

No I'm not.
From where it joins the rest of the system it will impose scheduling and physical plant burdens on the rest of the system, especially in the 2 track segment from Newtown Junction to Wayne Junction, and to a lesser extent in the 3 tracks through Wayne Junction and the 4 tracks to 30th St.

gardendance wrote:No I'm not.
From where it joins the rest of the system it will impose scheduling and physical plant burdens on the rest of the system, especially in the 2 track segment from Newtown Junction to Wayne Junction, and to a lesser extent in the 3 tracks through Wayne Junction and the 4 tracks to 30th St.

OK. Well nomis is pointing out that the Newtown trains would be extensions of existing Fox Chase trains, so they wouldn't add to traffic on the trunk. Are you arguing that the Newtown trains would be run in addition to Fox Chase?

And as far as the four tracks go, even if the Newtown trains were added to the schedule (assuming they use standard MU consists), there'd be no added traffic. At present, some of the PRR-side trains have to terminate at Roberts Yard, since there are more PRR than Reading trains in the base schedule. Those could also be used to provide the added service.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

gardendance wrote:No I'm not.
From where it joins the rest of the system it will impose scheduling and physical plant burdens on the rest of the system, especially in the 2 track segment from Newtown Junction to Wayne Junction, and to a lesser extent in the 3 tracks through Wayne Junction and the 4 tracks to 30th St.

OK. Well nomis is pointing out that the Newtown trains would be extensions of existing Fox Chase trains, so they wouldn't add to traffic on the trunk. Are you arguing that the Newtown trains would be run in addition to Fox Chase?

And as far as the four tracks go, even if the Newtown trains were added to the schedule (assuming they use standard MU consists), there'd be no added traffic. At present, some of the PRR-side trains have to terminate at Roberts Yard, since there are more PRR than Reading trains in the base schedule. Those could also be used to provide the added service.

I was making an assumption that the trains would go Newtown-FoxChase-CCP using existing trainsets & slots, thus not adding additional trains through FoxChase. I don't think that Newtown Jct to Fox Chase can support 3 trains per half hour (2 in peak dir, 1 not peak dir) during rush hour since the line is now singletracked sans chelt-to-lawn.

That shows how long it's been since I rode Fox Chase. I never got to experience the single tracking.

gardendance wrote:That shows how long it's been since I rode Fox Chase. I never got to experience the single tracking.

The single-tracking was fairly recent.

Just today I noticed that someone put up at Bethayres at least two copies of a notice promoting future Fox Chase-Newtown R8 service on the traditional line from Fox Chase to Newtown with what may be a few renamed or replaced stations. One of the renamed ones is "Bethayres Transportation Center". There's a link to a web site that I didn't have time to write down.

While I can sympathize with this advocacy, there are a few flaws: 1. The "meet" at Bethayres is somewhat down the tracks. 2. Just in the past few months, a large part of the southern end of the Montgomery County portion, mainly or entirely in Abington Township, was converted to a trail that is already popular. 3. At least one bridge between Fox Chase and the beginning of the trail portion was removed a while back.

If I can get the link tomorrow or Friday, I'll post it here.

I agree that a common station is unlikely. The meet at Bethayres is somewhat down the tracks from the current Bethayres station, which if I remember correctly is on the farside of the nearest highway overpass.
Whoever put up the flier might be dreaming about a new and relocated Bethayres Transportation Center.
I agree it's rather far fetched, but maybe their proposal will have this new station's platforms closer to the Newtown line crossing
Or maybe it'll be 2 sets of platforms with a common parking lot between them where the softball fields are now. Probably not worth the cost. Not perfect for passengers who want to transfer, but a slight advantage for people who drive to the station, who then could pick a parking spot near the platform for the next scheduled train, and then not have an unreasonable walk to their car even if their evening train was on the other line.

Felix wrote:Where is your analysis of the ROI?

The government is building this. The government should build things that don't make a profit. If they have to show that it would be profitable, they would never be able to make anything. Are the police profitable? Are roads profitable? Are public parks profitable? Is health care profitable? What a silly question! Returns on investment are completely the wrong question to ask. Health care is a right -- who cares how much the taxpayers have to pay to get free health care? Public transit is a right -- who cares how much those taxpayers have to pay for our trains?

Show me proof that property values do not decline if they are located directly next to a train line. The hundreds of people next to this one would want to know.

If you think quiet electric trains are a problem, wait until it's turned into a trail, and you have rapists, murderers, litterers, and spandex-wearing bicyclists using the trail.

the flyer at Bethayres, http://www.r8newtown.com/stations.html, which indicates a R3-R8 transportation center, and prior suggestions of putting in a junction where the non-junction diamond R2-R8 crosssing was got me thinking. Does anybody know, or at least have some ideas, why the Reading didn't at least put in their own track connection, or have a common Bethayres area station for both lines?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area on the north side of the R3 tracks protected wetlands? What about the south side of the R3 tracks at the intersection of the R8?

In addition, it would have been difficult to build a station there due to the routing of the Pennypack Creek. It probably was a lot more expensive to build over the creek than to the side for the line that had the most ridership. A Bethayres Transportation Center wouldn't do much unless NJT reopens its West Trenton Line with connecting service to New York. I don't see much demand for travel towards Fox Chase or Newtown from points on the R3, but I see a bit of demand for service towards New York, which would also bring reverse commuters to use that station.

All in all, I still feel that with the current political climate, a RiverLINE service is more likely to end up going between Bethayres and Newtown instead of an extension of the R8.

gardendance wrote:the flyer at Bethayres, http://www.r8newtown.com/stations.html, which indicates a R3-R8 transportation center, and prior suggestions of putting in a junction where the non-junction diamond R2-R8 crosssing was got me thinking. Does anybody know, or at least have some ideas, why the Reading didn't at least put in their own track connection, or have a common Bethayres area station for both lines?

Yes, the reason is because the Newtown line was operated by the PRR until 1923, believe it or not. It was sold to the Reading after that. Why the Reading did not connect the two lines, I am not sure of. It is a tight spot there, but a connecting track can be built.

Worth reading is the 1991 SEPTA Reactivation study. Very eye opening...
http://www.r8newtown.com/documents/1991 ... nStudy.pdf

R3 Passenger wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area on the north side of the R3 tracks protected wetlands? What about the south side of the R3 tracks at the intersection of the R8?

Yes, it is protected, but as long as wetlands are replaced, the connection can be built - see here http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/v ... 5/147.html

R3 Passenger wrote:A Bethayres Transportation Center wouldn't do much unless NJT reopens its West Trenton Line with connecting service to New York. I don't see much demand for travel towards Fox Chase or Newtown from points on the R3, but I see a bit of demand for service towards New York, which would also bring reverse commuters to use that station.

It is in the works, but very slowly. See here http://www.r8newtown.com/documents/NJT_R3_NYC.pdf

R3 Passenger wrote:All in all, I still feel that with the current political climate, a RiverLINE service is more likely to end up going between Bethayres and Newtown instead of an extension of the R8.

If the people supprt it, then the county politicians will support it (votes). Then a study can be requested. The political climate in PA is very very different than that of NJ. It is important to remember that the state of NJ supported the RiverLINE. PA does not really support SEPTA that often, so SEPTA is at a severe disadvantage.

R3 Passenger wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area on the north side of the R3 tracks protected wetlands? What about the south side of the R3 tracks at the intersection of the R8?

Because it leaves you with two weak lines instead of one strong one.
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Pacobell73 wrote:

gardendance wrote: why the Reading didn't at least put in their own track connection, or have a common Bethayres area station for both lines?

the Newtown line was operated by the PRR until 1923, believe it or not. It was sold to the Reading after that. Why the Reading did not connect the two lines, I am not sure of. It is a tight spot there, but a connecting track can be built.

Pennsylvania Railroad involvement is news to me. Are you sure about that 1923 date? The bastion of truth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelph ... k_Railroad says

On November 22, 1879, the North Pennsylvania Railroad began operating it, as it was no longer of use to the PRR. As the North Penn was controlled by the Reading Railroad, the Newtown line became a part of the Reading system.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the area on the north side of the R3 tracks protected wetlands? What about the south side of the R3 tracks at the intersection of the R8?

Because it leaves you with two weak lines instead of one strong one.
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I was thinking the same thing. Maybe since Newtown is always a hot topic around here, we should have a list of Frequently Refuted Arguments (FRA?) as a sticky topic or something. Just off the top of my head:

"Well, there was nobody riding it when they ended service"
And the population in Newtown and the surrounding communities has since exploded.

"They stopped service because of that big crash in Southampton"
No, they suspended service because the RDC's were terribly unreliable, which killed ridership.

"Bryn Athyn blah blah Bryn Athyn blah blah blah"
Ok, it's been 20 years, the guy who allegedly represented that constituency and put the kabash on it back then isn't pulling the strings anymore, and not having to address riders in Montgomery County is actually advantageous in terms of capital and operating costs and efficiencies.

"Well this is in poor condition, and that needs to be put back in"
Yeah yeah, they did it before. Before power equipment even!

"It runs too close to existing lines, and if it gets any ridership, it would just be drawing riders from those lines."
Not quite. Back when they extended service to Downingtown and Wilmington, the ridership which was gained far outweighed the miniscule losses at inward stations, because riders that were diverted to the new station opened up availability to new riders at the inward station. There's no reason why the same phenomenon wouldn't occur with a restored Newtown branch.

"Well it runs through peoples' back yards and they're going to oppose it with torches and pitchforks because it will bring down their property values."
When they buy those homes, they're well aware there's a railroad just beyond their yard. I have yet to see proof that adjacent railroads diminish property values. See if the people living on Runnemede Avenue in Jenkintown have any trouble selling their homes for $500,000 when there's a 70mph electrified railroad just beyond their back yards. Nope. Because living in Jenkintown is extraordinarily convenient. And that is very significantly due to the multiple rail routes that serve the community.

I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting. Feel free to add.