Newtown line leased to Montco for recreational trail

Felix wrote:Show me proof that property values do not decline if they are located directly next to a train line. The hundreds of people next to this one would want to know.

OK, it's somewhat anecdotal but when we were house-hunting we looked at several communities near the Paoli line as well as farther afield. The houses were all similar in construction, lot size, and amenities. In all cases the closer they were to the railroad, the more expensive they were. In spite of wanting to be near the R5 we settled for the car-clogged mess of King of Prussia because the same housing cost 40 (yes, four-zero) percent less.

JeffK wrote:

Felix wrote:Show me proof that property values do not decline if they are located directly next to a train line. The hundreds of people next to this one would want to know.

OK, it's somewhat anecdotal but when we were house-hunting we looked at several communities near the Paoli line as well as farther afield. The houses were all similar in construction, lot size, and amenities. In all cases the closer they were to the railroad, the more expensive they were. In spite of wanting to be near the R5 we settled for the car-clogged mess of King of Prussia because the same housing cost 40 (yes, four-zero) percent less.

I grew up within walking distance of the R5. one of my parents always took teh train to work, I took it to my first job before i had a car, then took it to work later in life. I can't imagine having to drive to it. being close to it probably saved my parents from having to buy TWO cars over a period of time. that is, not having two cars for a long enough period of time that they would have had to replace the second car. this is partly why properties are more expensive, it saves you money.

Suburban Station wrote:this is partly why properties are more expensive, it saves you money.

Yup. We had been in a Wayne apartment within walking distance of the R5 and lived for 3 years with only one car, used mostly to visit our respective parents. Nearly all other travel was by train.

The major reason we decided to buy a house farther away was that I'd changed jobs and as a newly-minted college instructor there wasn't enough cash flow to handle that extra 40% up front

Try to remember there's a difference between the property value and the price, and that value is relative.
I don't believe restoring train service will result in declining prices, but if restoring the Newtown line causes the price of a nearby house to drop $40,000, but being near enough to the restored station means the family can give up one automobile because they can now walk, or have the spouse take them to the kiss and ride, they'll recoup that $40,000 in not too many years. Assuming $20,000 to buy and $2,000 per year to maintain a car, for that family the railroad did not affect the property value.

Pacobell73 wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:It's my understanding that each municipality needs to support and study their piece, which seems like a balkanized approach.

It is a very balkanized approach, which is why nothing ever gets done. This is serious problem in the Del Vly - playing to the lowest common denominator, and giving into the whims of 1 group in a group of 100. We have been told that every single township has to agree on this line to bring it back. We could move the Rock of Gibraltar first before making a miracle like that happen.

What am I missing here? FRA still has oversight on Septa's heavy rail lines so not ONE SINGLE township needs to agree on restoration.

gardendance wrote:Try to remember there's a difference between the property value and the price, and that value is relative.
I don't believe restoring train service will result in declining prices, but if restoring the Newtown line causes the price of a nearby house to drop $40,000, but being near enough to the restored station means the family can give up one automobile because they can now walk, or have the spouse take them to the kiss and ride, they'll recoup that $40,000 in not too many years. Assuming $20,000 to buy and $2,000 per year to maintain a car, for that family the railroad did not affect the property value.

I am not talking about properties "near" or "within walking distance" of a RR line. I mean properties DIRECTLY ADJACENT to the line. I would love to see evidence that those values do not go down. There are hundreds of homes that are directly adjacent to this line. Most of them were built after the line shut down in 1983. Those folks knew that the line could be reactivated when they bought their homes, so shame on them. My issue is with groups that advocate things that work for their own agenda (making their commutes a little easier), without any regard for those who are seriously negatively impacted.

Listen, SEPTA can do what they want to do. They have the ROW. They have chosen not to reactiviate the line because there is no ROI. Everyone knows that. The folks in Bucks County do not take trains to take trains. They are too busy taking their kids to soccer practice. They take trains to commute to work in Philly, and there are other options for that right now. The only folks who can make the argument that there are no other viable public transit options are the folks north of Newtown, but there are not enough Philly commuters there to warrant a $150+ million investment. And even if there were, I could make the same argument that if you knew the commute was tough, then why do you live and work where you do? The same question that some folks ask of the people that bought homes along the RR line.

An by the way, with the exception of that area north of Newtown, there is no more growth along this line. Communities like Churchville, Holland, Richboro and Southampton have no more land left to build on. All of these communites have spent money to preserve open space over the past 10 years, because they don't want to grow at the rate that they were growing at.

If the parking lots at Woodbourne and Warminster are crowded, expand them and add a couple of cars. It will cost a fraction of the $150 million.

The other thing to take into account in that area is not everybody works in Philadelphia. I'm sure many people work over in Jersey, or perhaps in the PA suburbs as well. So just because one area has grown, doesn't necessarily mean that the overwhelming majority of them work in one area, let alone would they chose to take the train over their own car.

cpontani wrote:The other thing to take into account in that area is not everybody works in Philadelphia. I'm sure many people work over in Jersey, or perhaps in the PA suburbs as well. So just because one area has grown, doesn't necessarily mean that the overwhelming majority of them work in one area, let alone would they chose to take the train over their own car.

Very good point.

That not all people nearby commute to Philadelphia is a justification for not revamping the line? That applies to all suburbs. So I guess expansion anywhere is not warranted? I really don't get it.

When you have two neighboring lines running nearly at full capacity, what will you do? What is the best short-term and long-term solution.

• Add more consists? ... Where are the slots for it on the Reading Mainline.
• Longer train consists? ... Trains that are longer than you platform provide dwell times that grow exponentially.
• Upgrade existing stations to HLP and increase parking? ... How many stations need to be retrofitted? What is your breakeven if a single platform, 4car HLP costs 2-3mil (Cheltenham & Olney on R8 line). What about that parking garage at either Glenside or Jenkintown (15mil+)?
• Create a RailWorks2 for Wayne Jct up to Glenside? ... Surely will cost more than 150mil to upgrade and expand the trunk line in order to have more capacity for the R1-R5. Service Disruptions will be great far and wide, or piece mail the project and it will take 15 years (my estimate) to be complete.
• Recreate a line to supplement existing corridors? ... Newtown trains do not need additional slots on the Reading trunk. HLP will be required for any new stations, and the Fox Chase branch is being rebuild as 4car HLP as we speak. Rebuilding the Newtown Line does not place service disruptions on the rest of the Reading Lines while it is being built.

nomis wrote:When you have two neighboring lines running nearly at full capacity, what will you do? What is the best short-term and long-term solution.

Longer train consists? ... Trains that are longer than you platform provide dwell times that grow exponentially.

So why not lengthen the platforms and build the extensions as high level? There looks to be enough room to lengthen Rydal, Meadowbrook,Trevose and Yardley to 6 car length platforms, as well as converting Crestmont . I'd think that even lengthening every single station to at least 5 car lengths and converting them to high level platforms has to be cheaper than the $150 million price tag.

With that said, I'm not familiar with the rush hour consists on the Warminster and West Trenton lines. About how many cars in length are rush hour trains? Are my idealized platform lengths long enough, or do they need changing? Also, ideally, am I correct in assuming that you want all the platforms on a given line to be of equal length?

Upgrade existing stations to HLP and increase parking? ... How many stations need to be retrofitted? What is your breakeven if a single platform, 4car HLP costs 2-3mil (Cheltenham & Olney on R8 line). What about that parking garage at either Glenside or Jenkintown

All projects that will need to be done anyway. As gas becomes more scarce, more companies will move into the city in order to be closer to transportation hubs. This means more commuters, which will mean longer trains. Better to do it now, if for only the ability to have longer trains when needed.

Recreate a line to supplement existing corridors? ... Newtown trains do not need additional slots on the Reading trunk. HLP will be required for any new stations, and the Fox Chase branch is being rebuild as 4car HLP as we speak. Rebuilding the Newtown Line does not place service disruptions on the rest of the Reading Lines while it is being built.

I still say the best way to restore service is the Newtown Dinky. No new slots on the Reading main needed; the possibility of using the R3 not only to go into the city but also for radial service to West Trenton; certainly a lower price and certainly less Montgomery County opposition since so little of the dinky ROW would reside in Montco. I think radial service is such an overlooked part of public transportation, and a connection at Bethayres would provide for such service. Again, this is not an issue if SEPTA's other service gaps were already being fixed...which would've happened if SVM had been a rational, workable plan...and a rational plan would have meant FTA funds, which would have freed up funds for R3 West Chester service restoration...[/lament]. Anyway, Felix is right - not everyone who creates congestion is commuting; some are simply visiting friends in Jenkintown. So why do ALL routings have to go into center city?

Felix wrote:I am not talking about properties "near" or "within walking distance" of a RR line. I mean properties DIRECTLY ADJACENT to the line. I would love to see evidence that those values do not go down. There are hundreds of homes that are directly adjacent to this line. Most of them were built after the line shut down in 1983. Those folks knew that the line could be reactivated when they bought their homes, so shame on them. My issue is with groups that advocate things that work for their own agenda (making their commutes a little easier), without any regard for those who are seriously negatively impacted.

Listen, SEPTA can do what they want to do. They have the ROW. They have chosen not to reactiviate the line because there is no ROI. Everyone knows that. The folks in Bucks County do not take trains to take trains. They are too busy taking their kids to soccer practice. They take trains to commute to work in Philly, and there are other options for that right now. The only folks who can make the argument that there are no other viable public transit options are the folks north of Newtown, but there are not enough Philly commuters there to warrant a $150+ million investment. And even if there were, I could make the same argument that if you knew the commute was tough, then why do you live and work where you do? The same question that some folks ask of the people that bought homes along the RR line.

An by the way, with the exception of that area north of Newtown, there is no more growth along this line. Communities like Churchville, Holland, Richboro and Southampton have no more land left to build on. All of these communites have spent money to preserve open space over the past 10 years, because they don't want to grow at the rate that they were growing at.

If the parking lots at Woodbourne and Warminster are crowded, expand them and add a couple of cars. It will cost a fraction of the $150 million.

Felix if you're that worried about it, the best thing for you to do would be to keep quiet and sell now. If you go on record with someone about the train, you'll have to disclose that when you sell your house, otherwise you'll get sued. From what I hear, it sounds like the train is coming back, so if you're that against it, either get used to it or think about relocating.

I think the line has been dormant because ridership was pretty flat for awhile, now its spiked and gas prices will too as soon as the economy comes back, and then we're back to crowded trains.

I guess if the group advocating for the line is that bothersome, maybe take it up with them and see why they're pushing it. There's nothing wrong with trying to improve transit, I think its the way of the future. Trains and bikes, you just can't beat it. Anyways, the R8 sounds like a good idea to me. $200 mil is a drop in the bucket when you consider they're spending over a billion to redo 95 again which is only 30 years old.

Felix wrote: if you knew the commute was tough, then why do you live and work where you do? The same question that some folks ask of the people that bought homes along the RR line.

So why did you buy a home next to dormant railroad tracks if it bothers you that much? Just curious

nomis wrote: [*]Recreate a line to supplement existing corridors? ... Newtown trains do not need additional slots on the Reading trunk. HLP will be required for any new stations, and the Fox Chase branch is being rebuild as 4car HLP as we speak. Rebuilding the Newtown Line does not place service disruptions on the rest of the Reading Lines while it is being built.

I'm not sure what your definition of the Reading trunk and what you envision the Newtown service to be. If it's through running Newtown-Fox Chase-Center City then it will join what I consider the Reading trunk at Newtown Junction.

gardendance wrote:

nomis wrote: [*]Recreate a line to supplement existing corridors? ... Newtown trains do not need additional slots on the Reading trunk. HLP will be required for any new stations, and the Fox Chase branch is being rebuild as 4car HLP as we speak. Rebuilding the Newtown Line does not place service disruptions on the rest of the Reading Lines while it is being built.

I'm not sure what your definition of the Reading trunk and what you envision the Newtown service to be. If it's through running Newtown-Fox Chase-Center City then it will join what I consider the Reading trunk at Newtown Junction.

The point was that restoring through service from Newtown via Fox Chase will not impose scheduling or physical plant burdens on the rest of the system. He's saying the same thing you are.