New plan for Buffalo Central Terminal redevelopment

So Buffalo goes from private money running steel mills, to public money for a place for painters to paint and sculptors to sculpt. The wimpification of America knows no bounds.

The Terminal project in some ways reminds me of when they take a railroad coach, or caboose, or even an engine, gut it out, and put in tables for a restaurant or beds for a motel room. Yes, the exterior is preserved, and it's better than demolition. And frankly, neither that caboose nor that terminal have any use in today's world as far as their original purpose goes. But at what point does it get so far removed from its original form or function that - from a railroad perspective - interest wanes?

If someone - taxpayers by referendum or private business - is willing to pay for a project and take a risk, why not. In any case, no harm in conceptualizing possibilities for the future of CT.

From a railroad perspective, save the building, save a piece of railroad history - a visual, physical reminder of railroading past, the immensity of the enterprise and its importance to the growth of Buffalo. And for many people, the building was more than a train station - a place to meet and say goodbye, a symbol of home, a symbol of Buffalo - a part of the community.

Railroading and CT will never be what hey were but nothing wrong ,assuming the dollars work, with saving an artifact of the past to remind the future from whence we came.

I looked over the link on page 4 regarding the history of this developer. Perfect match, pipedream project and a looney toon of a developer. No need to wonder where this will end up. This is another case of the lunatic fringe that the Buffalo area historic preservation community has constantly made of themselves. This developer coming to town and revitalizing the Central terminal, after a quick look behind the door is another pie in the sky project with desperate hopes pinned on any screwball with a "plan" and 15 seconds of media space. None of this, to a rational person constitutes anything meaningful or substantive. Just more amusing noise from the direction of the preservationists and their hopes.

Central terminal has had questionable development leadership in the past when the surrounding area was bad but not nearly as bad as it is today. Look where it has gotten the building today. The building is so massively large it would take an immensely successful business venture profits just to keep the utilities on, maintanace done, and other regular costs of simply operating. The cost to rehab is far beyond that. Anyone credible with the access to the funds wouldn't attempt to do this as all that can reasonably be expected would be a very large negative financial return for the effort and investment. If this was New York or Chicago or Toronto....maybe, a BIG maybe. But this is Buffalo and despite some pockets of success with Larkinville and canalside, the population exodus has already done major damage, taxes are still sky high discouraging business, jobs and careers in the Buffalo area are no blooming, the money isn't there and probably won't be for the duration of most of our lives.

I love the old building, I am not for tearing it down and others can d with their time and money as they please (As long as it isn't flushing tax dollars) all I am is a realist with an opinion.

I love the old building, I am not for tearing it down and others can do with their time and money as they please (As long as it isn't flushing tax dollars) all I am is a realist with an opinion.

I second the motion.

Digressing slightly, I have heard tell that back the the time immediately after it was vacated, that many of the offices on the higher floors seemed to have been left pretty much as they had been. I heard that in some instances there were desks, and file cabinets full of paperwork for whatever that office dealt with. And that over time, what could be burned was burned by vagrants and winos. If that is accurate, who knows what interesting archives were lost to future research? Can anybody confirm or refute that that was the case?

The greater Buffalo area is rising out of the ashes after long decline. A Google search for Buffalo Rising shows the region is developing what is known as an ed/med/tech economy. (Rochester is undergoing similar revitalization, although it doesn't have a catchy name.) With that being said, some neighborhoods are still quite bad. Heck, there are bad neighborhoods in almost every medium or large size American city. BCT sits in one of those neighborhoods. Even if there were vast sums of money to rehab the terminal, would it offer an attractive package to be would-be residents and shoppers? Beyond the external architecture of the building, what would redevelopment offer that isn't available elsewhere in Buffalo?

The story related about the terminal tower is absolutely true, I can vouch for that. Back in the late seventies-early eighties time frame, myself and a few friends picked some locks and got into the tower and a number of rooms. Yes there were desks and file cabinets stuffed with all kinds of old New York Central "paper" type collectibles. At the time Tony Fedele had the building and the local railway historical society was helping with the building, it was basically volunteer labor, Tony got some things done and the railroad buffs felt like they were making a contribution to the future of the terminal so everyone was happy.....well mostly. Leadership from WNYRHS at the time knew of the vast amounts of historical paper records through out the building and told Tony if he donated it they would provide receipts of it's value as a historical donation and provide tax benefits for Tony, another win win. Instead, Tony had his crew throw massive amounts away in roll off dumpsters, WNYRHS got nothing and Tony got nothing except paying for dumpsters and his labor costs.
We found loads of employee timetables and concentrated on those tower floors, dating back to about 1940, every region and division in PA and NY state, some Ontario and Ohio. We found a back staircase and had about 5 of us and made an evening of it, filled the trunk of my car and more on the back seat, got what we could in a couple hours time. We divied up the stuff. I long ago disposed of my collection of railroad paraphenalia (Gave it to friends, I got tired of it filling boxes and drawers, never being looked at and having to be moved every time I did). I'm pretty sure my friends still have all that stuff.

And while I diverted on to this topic, one of the fun aspects of being a buff back in the late seventies was discovering little pots of treasure like this. We lost a lot of interest after Conrail took over and our trips centered more around abandoned lines and old railway structures. At that time one might find some real treasures left behind that would have eventually been tossed out or lost to the elements or vandals etc.

Some of the more exciting treasures" we discovered and liberated back in the day......

Chessie former BR&P shop buildings at Salamanca, Locomotive inspection reports from the days of steam, lettering diagrams for equipment, plans of B&O specific style cars.

LV late fifties-early sixties locomotive inspection reports at Manchester..... I had enough just from my portion of the haul to fill a good sized dresser drawer

Even though we frequented the place in the late seventies we still got some good stuff out of the old DL&W terminal. Broken Lackawanna and Nickel Place china that was only in a couple pieces in the trainsheds that were easily cleaned and glued back to whole pieces. The old main ticket office did have a fire at one time but paper is a good insulator. Under the top burned crust we found loads of old tickets, timetables and promotional items for DL&W and Nickel Plate going back into the thirties.

Found and restored an oak ticket case in a DL&W station in the Southern Tier that was abandoned and open to the elements. Paperwork including milk train records from the early fourties.

Ft Erie Ontario late Seventies....The N&W was scrapping the old Wabash F7's there one by one as their term came up. We made friends with the engine shop personnel and they allowed us to come and take whatever we wanted, we would show up, with tools and go to work for hours, no problem ever other than explaining it to the folks getting back over the Peace Bridge. We got horns, builder plates, seats, gauges and entire engine control stand in one instance, number boards, bells other stuff I have long forgotten. Kval Hobies used to have a 5 chime horn in the shop for many years, that was an item Bruce Aikman and I recovered from a Ft Erie scrap F7. When one thinks about this it was truly amazing we were allowed to do this, no releases, noting, just don't get hurt and stay low key, help yourselves, that was IT ! Far cry from the life we all live today in this day and age anything like this would be totally unimaginable.

I know myself and various friends managed to save former LV signal and other related signs and equipment when the LV main was being torn up.

Fast forward to about 1999, I wasn't an active buff anymore but still had closet interest in railroads. I was a Business Manager at UP in KCMO and around the holiday season would take my boys to work with me on some days. We would always go over to Neff ard tower to watch the hump and then visit the diesel facility we all knew as Jiffy Lube. They had a dispatch office in there that the boys liked to see (They were around 5 or 6 at the time) and go go see ther engines, even underneath at the inspection and light repairs shop. Some of the guys who knew me let the boys run a locomotive on the approach track, blow the horn and all as they stood by to assist with brake or throttle but the boys did get to run an engine or two. One year they ahd an SP SD45 there to scrap, and I was offered anything of interest. I wasn't into collectiong but a local hobby shop did end up receiving a seat with SP embossed in the top, a horn and builders plate.

No private investor will ever invest one thin dime into BCT. They'd be crazy to. It makes 0 business sense. If the building had never fallen victim to the weather, thievery & vandalism, maybe, as it was 30 years ago, but not now, not ever. The ONLY saving grace would be if by some miracle, the State took over like they did with the Richardson Complex, but there, they already owned it, or Solar City where it wasn't a restoration but a complete & totaly new build out. Other successful train terminal (or other large, single purpose building) revitalizations happened BEFORE the entire place went to hell, while the buildings were still in decent shape & the artifacts & architectural details were all still (for the most part) there. BCT has absolutley nothing going for it whatsoever right now. No major public awareness or backing, no political will power & wherewithal to get any kind of funding going, no private interest, no grant opportunity, no economic development opportunity, no decent location, no decent condition, NOTHING. If you're seriously thinking that the Terminal can & will be rebuilt in our lifetime, well, then you're probably convinced that the steel mill is coming back & the Bills are going to win the Super Bowl.

SST wrote:As I've stated in the past, the BCT is going to have a tough time due to its surroundings. But the Buffalo news has recently published an article that could prove me wrong over a period of time. Its a tiny little drop in a large area.....but maybe? Its the only positive thing that I've seen in that immediate area in a long time.

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Larkin was a great redevelopement. But I wonder what will happen if Key Bank buys First Niagara and pulls everything out of Larkin. Big set back.

Interesting article. Bangladeshis arrive with virtually nothing except strong work ethic and strong family units that value education and religion and make a go of it. Truly the American dream. Welcome to Buffalo. I wish them the best.

Why couldn't the previous denizens have done the same? (Insert your answer here) I wonder how long it will take them to complain about being "pushed out" by the Bangladeshis and demand public housing elsewhere in the city.

Refurb BCT? Not with my taxpayer money. Looking for another source? I hear there's some $$$ buried in the Rochester Subway...

The location is all wrong - it would have made a great terminal for the Fast Ferry!

The main problem with the Buffalo Central Terminal is the neighborhood. Its bad, very bad. I have gone to an event at BCT recently, and I would not want to walk off the grounds after dark. Houses by the week seem to be knocked down or collapsing. With a renovation projected the surroundings neighborhoods would need to be knocked down.

Some positives, it really is not that far frm downtown. Your roughly a 10 minute drive to Larkinville, 15 frm downtown. It is easy to get to, not right off the I-190 but very easy to get to from the Walden exit on 90.

Being the largest(to my knowledge ) remaining art deco station in the US there is a big push from a historical aspect not only in Buffalo but NYS as well.

Also the main lobby part is what i think is being focused on, there is then entire other section that was the loading areas, the offices, that is monsterous in size that is another project all together from the tower.

Now saying that, if it was developed into a mix use with busjnesses and residential it could work. It would be a goant beacon and would help to juno start the area. However it would take a large area around it being purchased as well. I would considered having a business on a protected possibly gated facility.

This coming from someone who lives in the next suburb over, grew up in WNY, and has heritage to the NYC and the Terminal. So i will always help, and do what I could to get it back to how it was.

BR&P wrote:

I love the old building, I am not for tearing it down and others can do with their time and money as they please (As long as it isn't flushing tax dollars) all I am is a realist with an opinion.

I second the motion.

Digressing slightly, I have heard tell that back the the time immediately after it was vacated, that many of the offices on the higher floors seemed to have been left pretty much as they had been. I heard that in some instances there were desks, and file cabinets full of paperwork for whatever that office dealt with. And that over time, what could be burned was burned by vagrants and winos. If that is accurate, who knows what interesting archives were lost to future research? Can anybody confirm or refute that that was the case?

I have seen a lot of papers in various of RR companies all over the floor. but no desk or file cabinets in 1996, I would say 30% of them were burnt. (that % dont include the ashes that are blown away.. I was speaking of what was still on the floor in black) majority of them are weather-ruined. So they were worthless.. Ceiling material fall onto them.. I can see the RR logo and whatever else printed out but writing is hard to read... fading out from sun or water... If you want to find perfect condition of these include clear written.. then I would say that you're looking for 1/50 of skinny needle in the hay pile...

BR&P wrote: Digressing slightly, I have heard tell that back the the time immediately after it was vacated, that many of the offices on the higher floors seemed to have been left pretty much as they had been. I heard that in some instances there were desks, and file cabinets full of paperwork for whatever that office dealt with. And that over time, what could be burned was burned by vagrants and winos. If that is accurate, who knows what interesting archives were lost to future research? Can anybody confirm or refute that that was the case?

Back in 1993 or 1994 before I graduated from UB Engineering, a RR fan and myself climbed to the top of the tower to shoot some production film for his video production business. While he was setting up his tripods and video cameras and waiting for trains below, I ventured into some of the lower floors beneath the top deck. I don't recall seeing much wrecked or burned furniture, except maybe some old 1960's style swivel chairs. But there was considerable amount of heaping piles of paperwork, just left piles on the floors in a few rooms, exposed to the elements, rotting plaster chips and bird droppings. I did retrieve a manilla folder in good, clean shape, that contained damaged freight claims, for various RR's of the 1950's/'60's. For example, an IC Gulf carload carrying flour, was interchanged to PC when it was partially damaged when rain/snow got in thru a leaking roof hatch that was improperly sealed. By then I had to get out of there to see a coming freight out of Bailey Ave yard or Belt Line.

There's is a reason that you won't find much of the "office furniture". I always heard there was an auction to sell off filing cabinets, desk, chairs and what else they could that was no longer needed. The furniture was then collected in the waiting room before being sold off. A few items did slip by (typewriters, coat racks, swivel chairs).

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I'm not sure when but eventually this had happened. Decades of filings and paperwork all boxed and stacked up for disposal. You can see the beginnings of the water damage that lead to the plaster ceiling falling apart.

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And as for any "valuables" in the collection of paperwork. There still are a few diamonds in the rough to be had. A few years ago I pulled of original NYC track plans for Syracuse. Along with highway dept. blueprints. My favorite is this "Now Leasing"ad. Interesting enough is the listing of the address and Anthony Fedele's contact information (855-2216).

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Many of the floors in the tower still look like this though. One trash bag at a time it's bagged up and hauled into the dumpster. It's difficult enough to find a strong back to carry bag after bag downstairs, let alone someone to actually take the time to go through EVERY SHEET. So unfortunately into the trash it goes.

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Man, that last shot just says it all! What a mess.

An additional problem - since you can't save it ALL - is figuring what is worth saving, and worth it to whom? Boxes of car movement records would interest almost nobody - EXCEPT someone trying to analyze traffic patterns for some historical analysis. Some file cabinet of dates various old cabooses were condemned to scrapping would only interest the few caboose nuts (like me) out there. Purchase orders for track bolts, financial breakdown of one type of grease vs. another kind, permits for some farmer to cross over the Podunk Branch to reach a new field....maybe one or two people in the world who would care - but to those 2 people, it would be like winning the lottery.

The stuff you're throwing away could probably be sold to raise funds for the place for the sake of some volunteer labor.

I've followed old records like that being sold and the right stuff brings a ton of money. Even the common stuff will sell to someone. Bring a couple bags to Hamburg in February, I'll happily take them and go through them.