New plan for Buffalo Central Terminal redevelopment

Love how every comment on the Central Terminal goes straight to talking about the neighborhood. Even more so are the people who say it's so bad HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE. I volunteered for the CTRC for 9 years and have been there almost every day of every month at every hour. And yet I'm still here. I've walked around the building outside at morning, evening and night...never been mugged, stabbed or murdered. I had an NS engineer tell me yesterday a story he heard of someone committing suicide by diving off the tower. When I told him there has NEVER BEEN A REPORTED DEATH in the building or on the property. He didn't believe me and spent 20 minutes trying to find the article to prove it. Needless to say he couldn't find it.

The people who say that even if it was renovated to apartments n such that they would still never live in that area don't understand how the concept would work. You wouldn't be parking on the plaza. You'd be parking under the plaza in the parking garage underneath (parking for over 500 vehicles). Then a walk to an elevator at the base of Curtiss Street that would take you directly to your floor where you'd live. You would go from your apartment directly to your car and never see the outside till you left. And I'm sure if someone truly invested the nearly 70 million to fix the building and renovate it to apartment and housing would consider such a thing as security for tenants.

But I'm an optimist and it doesn't cost anything to believe in such a cause.


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Otto Vondrak wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:The very first time I was ever in Buffalo way back in 1958 with a good friend we were both warned about the dangers around the Central Terminal. It is too bad such a decent and historic building is in such a lousy location. As much as I like the building I still would not want any of tax dollars to be spent on it.
Noel Weaver

Noel, that's not fair, you never want tax dollars spent on anything I like

-otto-

Otto, with all due respect rhia is not so. There are a lot of railroad projects not only in New York but all over the place and thwy need and deserve our tax dollars for a huge amont of work on the existing physical plant and when this is finished you can also go to equipment problems all of which need tax dollars that will benefit rail travelers not only on New York but all over the place as well. If the people of Erie County and especially Buffalo really are serious about this historic structure I think it is up to them to come up with the funds to save it and fix it up
Noel Weaver

terminalfanatic wrote:Love how every comment on the Central Terminal goes straight to talking about the neighborhood. Even more so are the people who say it's so bad HAVE NEVER BEEN THERE.

I've been to BCT and photographed it from the outside. I also was also threatened by another driver a few blocks away because I blew my horn when he cut me off. The neighborhood looks, sounds and feels like the north side of Rochester (where I used to deliver pizza) so I speak from experience. BCT is not in a safe area. As others have suggested, NYS would have to clean up the entire neighborhood before rehabbing BCT... and that is a very expensive undertaking. I agree with Noel that our tax dollars would be better spent on other rail-related projects.

I know I have said this a few times, but quoting my grandfather who grew up in Buffalo has told me that the neighborhood around the station has been a "tough neighborhood" for generations before the station was built and continue will be.

Noel Weaver wrote:Otto, with all due respect rhia is not so. There are a lot of railroad projects not only in New York but all over the place and thwy need and deserve our tax dollars for a huge amont of work on the existing physical plant and when this is finished you can also go to equipment problems all of which need tax dollars that will benefit rail travelers not only on New York but all over the place as well. If the people of Erie County and especially Buffalo really are serious about this historic structure I think it is up to them to come up with the funds to save it and fix it up
Noel Weaver

With all due respect Noel, I was giving you a friendly ribbing. Also reminding you that the partnership CRTC seeks would be with a private investor/developer. Like it or not, cities sometimes give some sort of break to developers in order to encourage projects along. I don't think CRTC or anyone else is expecting the public to foot the entire multi-million dollar bill for the rebuilding and restoration of BCT. The city may respond with some in-kind services, such as paving the street leading to BCT, installing and maintaining street lights, etc. If you are really concerned about where "your" tax dollars are going, I suggest you run for a chair on the city government

-otto-

Matt Langworthy wrote:I've been to BCT and photographed it from the outside.

You heard the man, HE HAS BEEN THERE. Even stood OUTSIDE.

I also was also threatened by another driver a few blocks away because I blew my horn when he cut me off.

GOOD HEAVENS! He CUT YOU OFF? And then he BLEW HIS HORN at you? It's amazing you are even here to tell the tale.

The neighborhood looks, sounds and feels like the north side of Rochester (where I used to deliver pizza) so I speak from experience.

Experience as a pizza delivery driver in poor neighborhoods is relevant to what...?

BCT is not in a safe area.

If you don't feel safe, don't go there. That's the first rule of personal safety. The thousands of people who attend events at BCT do not share your feelings, however.

As others have suggested, NYS would have to clean up the entire neighborhood before rehabbing BCT... and that is a very expensive undertaking. I agree with Noel that our tax dollars would be better spent on other rail-related projects.

Your fantasy of having New York State "clean up the entire neighborhood" is something that has been invented in this thread and is not even the topic of the original post. The topic of the original post is the prospect of private investment. I followed up with an article about how the CRTC has squandered opportunities over the last several years. No one wants to discuss the potential restoration of BCT, only discuss how scary and bad the city is?

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:I've been to BCT and photographed it from the outside.

You heard the man, HE HAS BEEN THERE. Even stood OUTSIDE.

The issue of safety outside BCT is quite relevant. Since Star Trek-style transporters haven't been invented yet, visitors to BCT must interact with the environment around the building.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

I also was also threatened by another driver a few blocks away because I blew my horn when he cut me off.

GOOD HEAVENS! He CUT YOU OFF? And then he BLEW HIS HORN at you? It's amazing you are even here to tell the tale.

Apparently you need to reread what I wrote. I blew the horn, not the other driver. He subsequently threatened me when I pulled up next to him at a red light near BCT. The road is 4 lanes wide, FWIW.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

The neighborhood looks, sounds and feels like the north side of Rochester (where I used to deliver pizza) so I speak from experience.

Experience as a pizza delivery driver in poor neighborhoods is relevant to what...?

I was robbed while delivering pizza in February of 2003, in a Rochester neighborhood that is quite similar to the BCT's neighborhood. That's my experience! >:(

Otto Vondrak wrote:

BCT is not in a safe area.

If you don't feel safe, don't go there. That's the first rule of personal safety. The thousands of people who attend events at BCT do not share your feelings, however.

Given the fact there had been events at BCT, I thought I would be fine going to photograph BCT on a rainy afternoon. The road rage incident and the overall condition of the neighborhood (which was worse than I had expected) have convinced me that the BCT's area is not safe. I shan't return there unless there is major urban renewal.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

As others have suggested, NYS would have to clean up the entire neighborhood before rehabbing BCT... and that is a very expensive undertaking. I agree with Noel that our tax dollars would be better spent on other rail-related projects.

Your fantasy of having New York State "clean up the entire neighborhood" is something that has been invented in this thread and is not even the topic of the original post. The topic of the original post is the prospect of private investment. I followed up with an article about how the CRTC has squandered opportunities over the last several years. No one wants to discuss the potential restoration of BCT, only discuss how scary and bad the city is?

-otto-

So it's OK to waste private money? BCT was a beautiful building back in the day but it's falling apart due to decades of neglect and located in a crapulent era. Investors would also be wise to spend their money elsewhere on rail-related projects. And yes, the condition of the neigborhood does relate to BCT"s potential to be redeveloped.

I believe that when someone bring in right kind of businesses, entertainment, some kind of park/public use, or whatever, it will drive neighborhood value up. landlords would increase the rental and some people may be forced to sell houses and move away because they cant afford property taxes... That will bring in better people to the area.

Many cities had done that... At Galluaduet University in DC- the properties around the university are really bad and horrible. H street down the block from Florida Ave had turned around and improved a lot. that had affected the homes between university and H street. The area were upscaled.. better people had moved into the area... it's no longer bad area..

I know that there's many places that had turned around for the better... If they can do it, then Buffalo and BCT can do it... All they just do is find right kind of new businesses or something which can turn around the neighborhood...

Cleaning up the area in order to hope to get better businesses wont work... It had failed before and will continue to fail..

Matt Langworthy wrote:So it's OK to waste private money? BCT was a beautiful building back in the day but it's falling apart due to decades of neglect and located in a crapulent era. Investors would also be wise to spend their money elsewhere on rail-related projects. And yes, the condition of the neigborhood does relate to BCT"s potential to be redeveloped.

Sorry you got robbed while delivering pizzas, and sorry you encountered bad aggressive driver in the city. Neither of those are relevant to the discussion, I'm afraid. I'm also sorry to hear you are against the restoration of BCT, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like you're saying your fear of going to the city makes you qualified to evaluate mulit-million dollar private real estate development proposals. You say the city is a bad place, and BCT is in a bad place, but you also say that no one should invest money (your "waste of private money") that could possibly make either a better place.

-otto-

Matt Langworthy wrote:
Since the majority of Buffalo area residents don't like the neighborhood, revitalizing BCT is fruitless.

You're right Matt. We should just go ahead with the buildings demolition and wipe out a decades worth of city demolition funds. The East side could use another barren empty lot. Not many of those around.

Tell me something...we're you one of the people who was glad to see the original Penn Station demolished too, and replaced with MSG?

terminalfanatic wrote:Tell me something...we're you one of the people who was glad to see the original Penn Station demolished too, and replaced with MSG?

I don't know enough about Penn Station and the situation regarding its demise to comment.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Sorry you got robbed while delivering pizzas, and sorry you encountered bad aggressive driver in the city. Neither of those are relevant to the discussion, I'm afraid.

Au contraire, Otto. My experiences with living and working in a city are relevant. What happened to me in Rochester can also happen to others elsewhere. Would you say the condition of the neighborhood surrounding BCT is closer to Avenue D or Penfield? Do you know the crime stats for that area well enough to say it's safe?

Otto Vondrak wrote:I'm also sorry to hear you are against the restoration of BCT, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like you're saying your fear of going to the city makes you qualified to evaluate mulit-million dollar private real estate development proposals. You say the city is a bad place, and BCT is in a bad place, but you also say that no one should invest money (your "waste of private money") that could possibly make either a better place.

It's quite a stretch to say I'm afraid of going to the city. I worked on West Main Street in Rochester from 1992 to 2003, and have worked near Clinton/East Main for a little over two years. I also lived in the City of Rochester from 1991 to 1999. With regards to locations within the City of Buffalo, I have photographed at Tifft Street several times per year since 2010, as well as occasionally visiting Ohio Street, Red Jacket Park, Seneca Street and SK Yard. I also attend concerts in Buffalo. I've even taken a few shots in downtown Boston (MA) and Portland (ME). None of those places are as blighted as BCT's neighborhood. Nor am I opposed to urban redevelopment. Our fellow rr.net member Railoaded has been quite vocal in his support for redeveloping the former Lackawanna terminal site, which I think is a good idea.

And truth be told, none of us posting in this thread are truly qualified to advise billionaire investors on where they should spend their money. With that in mind, do have you have any theories as to why nobody has successfully redeveloped BCT since it was sold to Fedele back in 1979?

Just my opinion but I doubt very much if any investor would sink millions into something like this when their investment dollars would and could go a lot farther on something in a much more prosperous area such as Florida (not because I live here), California, Arizona or a good number of other states that would offer a better return and a lot less cost and risk. I remember low cost housing being built in Connecticut when I lived there and everybody talking it up as being a neighborhood booster and today they have mostly been bulldozed to the ground and the areas are as bad or worse than before. There are even better areas in New York State for investment dollars. As for the statement that people have never been there before, I worked between Selkirk and Buffalo for ten years before my retirement and know Buffalo fairly well having had a car at my away from home terminal for a good part of my ten years working there.
As for Penn Station, New York the present facility is not as pretty as the old one but for a majority of railroad passengers the present facility is far better to use. Incidentally not only did I work out of both but as a passenger both before my railroad employment and since my retirement I have used Penn Station many different times. The old station was nicer and bigger but the present one was far better in nearly every respect.
OH I guess they can do anything they want here and it will not make one bit of difference to me anyway. I just don't want to see money wasted on something like this when the general condition of the railroad infrastructure in the northeast is in a really sad state. What good is a "palace" for railroad passengers when the infrastructure for these same passengers is literally falling apart? Incidentally Penn Station did not have to go but the taxes on that "palace" were astronomical and the passenger losses were as bad or worse. No help was forthcoming from the City of New York so they lost a treasure.
Noel Weaver

Obviously, private developers have ignored BCT for a reason - too costly to renovate and market. The only way the property can be saved and properly redeveloped would be very significant taxpayer dollars.

Well, there does come a time when it is necessary to shoot a almost dead horse...

I know that will not go over well with some posters, but it is 2015 after all.

It WAS a beautiful building and I have fond memories of some of my first train rides starting there when my Father was the engineer on the "no-name" train that replaced the Empire State Express around about 1963 or 64. Some of the cars preserved around Rochester were in the train that day.

I took some of the last trains in and out of that station back and forth to college before it was shut down in 1979.

All that being said, in the many years since 1979 when it was sold to a "private developer" not much has happened.

When a beloved family pet is too sick to enjoy life many folks make the difficult decision to "put them down", Sounds like that difficult decision about BCT is several decades overdue.

Put it out of it's misery and implode it for heck's sake. The NYCRR was too broke to pay to demolish it, otherwise it would have been gone by the mid sixties, heck they tried to sell if for the scrap metal value but the metal was not worth the expense of demolishing it.

Cheers, KevinK

When a local tells me he doesn't want to leave his car parked on the street all day in that neightborhood - at a venue that has a parking garage attached to it - that really says a lot.

When another vendor tells me that when they considered doing the BCT show in a tent on the property, he wouldn't do it even if they had guards overnight armed with M16s... that also tells me pretty much all I need to know.

I don't think there's any saving this structure; it probably never should have been built in the first place. If someone wants to try, I wish them luck, but I think long term it's a waste. Buffalo is a dying city in a high tax state. Even without the bad neighborhood around it, it's a risky proposition.

Too bad they can't put a casino in it, then maybe they'd make some money and could start buying up the homes around it.